People weigh in on this response I got from saying how nice Axe II 18 firmware is.

Absolutely. There's a noticeable difference IMO when plugged in with a humbucking Les Paul vs. singlecoils in a super strat or what have you... which, also IMO, is a positive sign, just like it is with my AxeII.

I agree. The Kemper reacts to my guitars like I would expect. Like the real amps would.

As far as tweaking is concerned for me, it's like I approach the Fractal now. These things sound pretty righteous at their defaults or with just minor tweaks. So not being able to veer too far in a profile is not a huge issue for me.

I will admit I delve into the Fractal advanced stuff just to piss my brother off.... lol. In five seconds I can add a variac, mismatch the transformer and change the low freq res :) Not "necessary" but pretty dayum cool in the Fractal that it's just that easy.
 
I love the Axe and for Kemper people that like what they have, that's great too. The thing that always makes me sick is when someone says I have this great patch with verb and delay the response is - my unit kills that instead of listening to the musician. And this happens MUCH more on the Kemper user camp. Do they really feel that threatened by the AxeFx?
 
This is one of those things where I wonder what planet I'm from since I don't seem to have the same experience everyone else has. I've had three or four KPA's now. I've profiled real amps and the KPA was never remotely close to "identical". The results ranged from "vaguely similar" to "somewhat close" with an occasionally "what in the world happened here?" thrown in for good measure. Most of the time when I got a pretty good shot of an amp I'd play it for a while and enjoy it. When I went back to the real amp, I quickly realized that it wasn't the same thing.

Its a cool device and I can see why people like it but I don't understand this notion of it being "identical" to the profiled amp. Similar-ish? sure.
 
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This is one of those things where I wonder what planet I'm from since I don't seem to have the same experience everyone else has. I've had three or four KPA's now. I've profiled real amps and the KPA was never remotely close to "identical". The results ranged from "vaguely similar" to "somewhat close" with an occasionally "what in the world happened here?" thrown in for good measure. Most of the time when I got a pretty good shot of an amp I'd play it for a while and enjoy it. When I went back to the real amp, I quickly realized that it wasn't the same thing.

Its a cool device and I can see why people like it but I don't understand this notion of it being "identical" to the profiled amp. Similar-ish? sure.

I've never created a profile.

I have played professionally made profiles along side an example of the same amp using CLR's as monitors. Like the Fractal, it's splitting hairs to tell them apart.
 
The problem I see is too many get caught up in the idea that creation of music is a competition.

Yawn.....

I could get my ideas across from any of the currently available modeler/profiler.

If you want to get all "team twighlight" over others gear choices maybe one needs to grow up.
 
I started off being attracted to the idea that the Axe had all these faithful copies of classic and boutique amps .... but the reality is that I have little or no first hand knowledge of what most of the originals would actually sound like if they were in front of me. I just find one that sounds in the ball park for my needs and maybe mod it to my prefered tone.

I find that a healthy way to make good noises and I don't get hung up on 'exactness'.

You might think differently and that's absolutely fine ..... do what you gotta do and enjoy yourself.
 
Going full bore with digital modeling recently, the whole Kemper vs AFX thing came up for me, as I'm sure it has for pretty much everyone in this forum. So, this topic will probably never die until there are two other big boys on the block that people will argue over or the products become so cheap that everyone can own 5 of each and it won't matter.

From everything I saw and read, there are rabid fans in both camps. That to me is a good sign, if people love your product that much, it must be good. So, I was pretty confident that whichever system I went with it would be excellent.

My general take on the KPA was that if you were a touring musician and wanted to clone your rig in a very lightweight box, then this was your tool. If you had access to a ton of really nice amps, the KPA would again make an excellent choice.

On the otherhand, the AFX was the way to go if you were going to start from nothing and create a rig from the ground up. Also, if you wanted to play with a ton of effects cheaply (included in the price) and easily (chain crazy pedal boards together virtually in AEdit) the AFX was for you.

I fall into the latter camp, where I don't have access to a ton of cool amps and I wanted to start experimenting with effects. Now, this is not to say that the AFX can't suck the soul out of an amp like the Kemper can or that the KPA can't allow you to create your own dream rig from scratch with effects like the AFX, it's just that each has more of an emphasis on one over the other feature. BTW, I have no intentions of ever cloning an amp, so the AFX was the right choice for me.

As for accuracy . . . I recently sold my Mark V to a guy who runs his own studio (Used to be the sound guy for Regina Spektor for about 10 years and without a doubt has a much more refined ear than me). He had a bunch of Fenders, Marshalls,and Voxs in his stable and was intimately familiar with the sound of all of them. He needed the Mesa for some of his new clients. While I was there I had my AFX+Matrix GT1000FX+Atomic CLR setup with me and let him play around with it. You should have seen his face when I pulled up the FW18.06 double verb factory preset. He was impressed to say the least and declared that is was spot on. He tried a couple of the Marshall (Crunchier/dirtier) presets too, but didn't quite have that AHA! moment. He stated that the tones were pretty close, if not dead on, but that there was a certain speaker feel that was missing. This is the whole FRFR vs. real cab thing that I've been reading about but don't have the skills to really appreciate.

So, I'm gonna have to say that the Kemper guy is probably biased like you surmised, because to my untrained ears, the AFX is the cat's meow. And to a trained professional music producer who had heard of the KPA, but was unaware of the AFX's existence (Sounds pretty unbiased to me) the unit passed his sniff test.
 
The problem I see is too many get caught up in the idea that creation of music is a competition.

Yawn.....

I could get my ideas across from any of the currently available modeler/profiler...

I totally agree. Music is not a competitive sport, and the tools someone uses to create theirs makes no difference to me. And while I absolutely love my Axe-Fx, I still sound like me whether I'm plugged into it or my 10 year old POD. (The AFX just presents a better version of me, lol.)
 
This must be the first time anyone's discussing Axe-Fx vs KPA.

I have tried the KPA. If everyone who's impressed with the profiling feature would try iZotope Ozone match EQ with a free plugin amp modeler they'd put things to a better perspective. When you understand what it's actually doing you will not be that impressed. It's very simple math. Minuses and pluses. I was also quite impressed with match EQ when I first discovered it like 6 years ago. The KPA wasn't very accurate in capturing the dynamics of my real amps. A simple palm mute test kind of shows the lack of the accuracy on the dynamic side. I don't know if it's amp specific but the Orange Rockerverb and Mesa Roadster seemed impossible for the KPA. Marshall JVM was pretty close. All that aside the KPA is a great unit and if it wasn't so many pros would not be using it. Seems like it's the metal guys that like the KPA for some reason though. Probably doesn't have anything to do with match EQ working better with more gain right? I completely understand why some people are afraid of the FAS monster. It might require you to learn a thing or two about signal paths if you're not familiar with real life guitar rigs. I think these are things that anyone who's serious about their guitar gear should know anyways.

About the Axe-Fx not being able to sound like you own real life amps...

Here's FW18 vs a real Mark IV with EL34s in the outer sockets at our studio without tone matching and just tweaking amp EQ and speaker resonances:
 
Like someone else said I'm actually impressed at how well articulated and thoughtful that response was if it was in fact on youtube. Most of the time a response consists of "the AxeFXII is a piece of shit and you suck" or something as compelling. ;) There is actually some thought and some points made.

...but they are a obviously biased because he is only presenting from his perspective and experience which completely disregards the workflow and process of patch creation in the AxeFXII. I have no doubt that the KPA sounds great with the right profile. But the entire premise of the KPA is based on the notion that someone on the planet owns a KPA, owns the exact amp I want to play, owns the exact cabinet, owns the exact mic, places the mic in the exact spot, adjusts the amp exactly how I want, profiles the whole set up and then makes it available to me either freely or for some fee.

That doesn't even factor in the time spent in tracking that magical profile down from amongst what I would imagine is close to 5000 profiles in existence to choose from (and that's being very conservative IMHO). So I sit there and spin the knob and play through profiles until something sounds great. Otherwise I have to own all of that stuff and "roll my own" which to me kind of makes the point of owning a modeler redundant or even pointless. If I did own all of that stuff and needed to put them all into one unit the KPA makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Some people consider "easier" as having less capability. To me that's fine if you aren't trying to create your own sound or are happy with just being handed something and being told to make it work. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There's actually something to be said for limiting user input because it does reduce the potential for mistakes and complaints. But to me it restricts my abilities and forces me down a strict path of tonal exploration and expression. I mean if everyone knows that Joey Profiler makes the best Plexi patch then everyone is going to get that profile and use it. It becomes generic and overused and becomes unspectacular at some point.

So since we had such a nice well thought out response I would probably take the time to reply in the same polite manner.

The AxeFXII is not a profiler nor does it pretend to be. It is a modeler. Now most modelers take a very simplistic approach to simulating an amp. They tend to be waveshapers and lack the dynamics that plugging into the real version has. In many of them you can roll the volume back to where it cleans up and then as you start to increase the volume it sort of just gets louder and then abruptly distorts and then gives you a louder distorted sound. To my ears it's as if there are two distinct things going on that are supposed to simulate the dynamic range, but in practice they seem separate to me.

This is not the case in the AxeFXII which provides virtualized representations of the actual amplifier's circuit. A traditional modeler may have one bit of code that comprises the entire preamp stage; the AxeFXII accounts for each individual component. The physical world's electrical properties of every component (capacitors, resistors, tubes, etc.) are written in discrete code. So when the real circuit has capacitors and transistors and tubes and transformers the same things that happen to the signal in real life in each component are happening in the virtual environment. The reason that this isn't done by every manufacturer is that it is extremely processor intensive which equates to cost. The DSP on the more popular off the shelf modelers is about $15-20 for the consumer; I am sure that the manufacturer enjoys significant price breaks. Just one of the two DSP's in the AxeFXII cost close to $200 for any of us who want to buy one and make a necklace out of it. It is not the fastest in terms of clock cycles, but dedicated processors have more to do with subroutines and architecture and the TigerSHARC DSP is the only DSP can that run the code of the AxeFXII in realtime. It also requires someone to write the code which is probably not trivial.

This subatomic attention to detail spent on the component level modeling combined with the raw power of two dedicated DSP's enable the AxeFXII to perform modeling to a degree of accuracy and realism that is without peer. And this is important because while a profiler can take a snapshot of an amp and create a very effective simulation of that moment it simply takes the input signal and changes it to match the signal that was present at the output of the mic during the profiling. Simply put it can not decompose the components nor the circuit of the amp or for that matter any amp that it profiles. It does not have the ability to reverse engineer the tone stack or even the separate gain stages within a circuit by comparing the original signal to the output of the mic. That realism starts and ends with the profile having to remain the same as the moment that it was created. Once you start dialing in a profile you are using static EQ's and gain approximations. That is simply not a realistic representation at that point and from people that own and love the KPA they have conceded that once you start digging deep into a profile you can only go so far before it starts to fall apart. That's not a slight against the KPA; that's just the inherent nature of profiling.

Basically if you want something specific it has to be profiled specifically.

A typical AxeFXII patch creation session consists of
  • Picking an amp that I want to use from the 200+ on-board models
  • Selecting a cabinet from either the 100+ on the unit or from a number of libraries both free and paid
  • Adjust the gain and tone stack of the amp to taste....just like a real amp.....I don't have to go into the advanced parameters to sound like the real amp
If I don't get where I want I can:
  • Loading a variety of mic types and placements into CabLab and mix them in realtime with CabLab
After that I can
  • Pick and place any effects that I want in either series or parallel and mix to my heart's content....I can also save up to 8 instantly recallable scenes in a single patch
  • Adjust gain staging at any point in the patch, EQ at any point, add filters if I want....but none of this is necessary; it is simply available
All of which can be done from the front panel or from the computer via AxeEdit

I can also
  • Record directly into a DAW from the AxeFXII as an audio interface and remain in the digital domain the entire time
  • I can record both wet and dry simultaneously and then reamp my recording to fit the mix better
  • In my case I have a device that utilizes AES and word clock sync capabilities which interfaces with my system and is rock solid

Does that make one better than the other? For my workflow and process only one does what I want how I want to the level that I want. I am not anyone but myself and my needs, tastes, experience, knowledge, sexual preferences, astrological sign nor DNA is the same as everyone else. Look objectively at what it is that you need to do and make a list. Then compare the two in terms of actual capability and workflow and buy one and be happy. If you find one that fits your needs you chose the best one for you.
 
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Some people consider "easier" as having less capability.

This was well said. Also it's easy to dismiss something that you have a hard time adopting. Frustration can easily turn into "this unit sucks" rather than "I'm really interested in learning how to properly use this unit".

I get these opinions like: "I played the Axe-Fx at my friends house and I didn't like it." Then I start getting the info that they only used one preset that should be awesome because it had everything on like chorus, phaser, delay, reverb... and gain on full and they were monitoring with ear buds.

"User error" is the hardest error to solve.
 
Maybe because I'm dyslexic I didn't make it clear enough for you. So let me try with you again.

...but instead I get you with your ignorant response.

So either I made a mistake in clarity which caused you to be like that, or you're a jackass, either way carry on.

Step away from the caffeine my friend...just step away. :lol

I didn't call you a troll, and honestly intended no offense. (Didn't call you a jackass or anything...hmmm) I just prefaced my comments with a caveat, given that I've seen plenty of Kemper vs Axe Fx threads that really are nothing more than attempts to stir up anti-Kemper sentiments...thus trolling, and I'm not interested in participating in those kinds of threads...nothing too complicated really. Carry on..
 
It boils down to photocopying (duplication) vs photoshopping (creating)...both have thier merits and uses to get things done which is all that counts...
 
The vasperator and the gluggatron in the KPA just don't have the same spanash as the vibe from the Axe, at least to my ears. The Axe seems like a better fit for my axe. I mean, after all, you don't strum a kemp do you? It seems like some of the pinions have been misconscrewed here. The snardfarc from the Kemper gives it quark but I personally prefer the zim from the Axe. This is certainly not to diss the KPA. As a few others have said, I am thankful for the option of choice in music tools. The freebies from FAS are certainly bodacious, not to mention they don't cost anything. I get some serious chops from my axe. Well, that is my contribution to this lively discussion.
 
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