Patch doesn't cut through live?

C

ConnorGilks

Experienced
Hey guys. I've got this awesome metal/djent patch that I love to death, but when I'm practicing with my band it just doesn't cut through. I've got a 150 poweramp with the volume on 2 o'clock and it's decent volume, but my other guitar player has his 100 watt amp on like 4 and has no issues being heard. It sounds like his sound is beefier or has some kind of lower mid boost going on.

I tried doing a big boost at 200Hz but no luck. I do have a PEQ block with a high cut and a lower cut, but the low cut is at 100Hz and it leaves room for our bass player nicely. Any thoughts? I have the mids very high on both the amp model and the drive pedal model (FAS Modern amp with an 808 drive pedal pushing it).

Thoughts?
 
regardless of "mid knobs" and settings, what really matters are the actual frequencies coming out of the speakers. 200hz might not do what you want. it's the mid-mids we want, not low mids :) but it really depends on the exact situation.

it's very common for presets made at "bedroom levels" to not cut through live or with the band. when playing alone, we tend to put too much low and high frequencies since the guitar is all alone. with the rest of the band there, suddenly there is a lot other bass and treble from other instruments and the guitar is buried.

you may have to cut the lows and highs in the EQ page of the amp block to get it to cut through, make a frowny face. might need to turn up the levels too to compensate.

you get used to it eventually and know how to create tones that will cut through as you design presets.

can you play some music that's similar to what your band will produce while you create your tones? you should be able to tell if you'll cut through.
 
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Chris@KatsuKuriMedia said:
regardless of "mid knobs" and settings, what really matters are the actual frequencies coming out of the speakers. 200hz might not do what you want. it's the mid-mids we want, not low mids :) but it really depends on the exact situation.

it's very common for presets made at "bedroom levels" to not cut through live or with the band. when playing alone, we tend to put too much low and high frequencies since the guitar is all alone. with the rest of the band there, suddenly there is a lot other bass and treble from other instruments and the guitar is buried.

you may have to cut the lows and highs in the EQ page of the amp block to get it to cut through, make a frowny face. might need to turn up the levels too to compensate.

you get used to it eventually and know how to create tones that will cut through as you design presets.

can you play some music that's similar to what your band will produce while you create your tones? you should be able to tell if you'll cut through.
Click to expand...

It's weird though... I've done exactly that. The boost at 200 was just a test recommended by a friend, it wasn't what I did when I made the patch. Like I said I have a PEQ cutting the lows and highs, as well as the bass being low (4) in the AMP block, and the highs being moderate (6). Like I said, the Mids are also at 8. I'm not sure what else to do really! Haha.
 
I find it very hard to tweak and play at the same time, have you considered using the Looper to sample a phrase and tweak while your band is playing to work things out? Make sure you set the looper mix to 100% so that the input/output is the same (you can put it in parallel to the input).

I find that when I want to cut through the mix, I do some aggressive cuts/high pass up to around 100 Hz, take out a little around 125, and most of the meat is between 1 kHz to 4 kHz. I use the graphic EQ in the amp block a lot.
 
While you're at it, consider raising your low cut frequency. Most of the bass's energy is above 100 Hz.
 
ConnorGilks said:
It's weird though... I've done exactly that. The boost at 200 was just a test recommended by a friend, it wasn't what I did when I made the patch. Like I said I have a PEQ cutting the lows and highs, as well as the bass being low (4) in the AMP block, and the highs being moderate (6). Like I said, the Mids are also at 8. I'm not sure what else to do really! Haha.
Click to expand...

If anything I'd cut at 200hz. Bass at 4 is still quite high, I'd turn it down to 3-3.5 at most, and use the amp's graphic EQ to boost high mids. Also, try turning down gain. Less gain = mix cutter.
 
Without a clip or knowing how you're monitoring them, it's pretty hard to determine, but here are some common causes:

Turn everybody down. Less volume = more clarity. The reason for this is the louder something is, the tighter your muscles in your ear get (to protect the delicate membranes from vibrating themselves to pieces). This results in a drastic decrease in sensitivity. If the guy has a 100w 1/2 stack with the master volume on 4, that's pretty loud. If you let the front of house do the heavy lifting and keep the stage volume low, you'll be able to hear a LOT more of what's going on.

Gain is probably too high as well. When you layer a couple guitars together, the gain gets a little unwieldy. This is especially true if you are playing similar rhythms/riffs as it'll tend to just sound like pick attack and little else.

Complimentary EQ's will help too. Notch out a couple mid frequencies for each of you to occupy (a couple decibel notch in one frequency on one guitar with an equal boost in the other at the same frequency). That way you're not competing for the same space and it won't drastically change your tone.

Are you using amps as your only monitors? Positioning your amps differently has a huge effect on what you hear on stage/in practice. Are you pumping guitars back through wedge monitors? Are you talking about being hear through front of house? What size/how many speakers are you running your poweramp into? So many factors and variations... Give us your exact setup and precisely what the problem is.
 
As Chris implied forget the knobs positions.
It depends so much on other factors (amp block and cab block for example). Trust your ears. if it doesn't cut it, it's probably mids.
Also I would boost around 1k+
 
Let me give some more information, as it seems I've done most of what's being said here.

This is not live, this is at band practice. We are only as loud as we need to be to match our drummer (we all wear earplugs). My amp (AxeFX II into Rocktron veloctiy 300 in Avatar 2x12 with V30's) and my other guitar player's amp (Bugera half stack) face our drummer on an angle (In a triangle shape of sorts). When no one else is playing but I play, I'm REALLY loud. When the other guitar player plays, he's not nearly as loud. When we all play, I hear him nice and clear, and I can hear myself just "sort of". When we play harmony I can tell there's a harmony going on, but it's not as clear as his tone.

For the patch itself, I have a CMP > DRV > AMP > CAB > PEQ setup. DRV has the mids set to around 1.4kHz and mid knob cranked to 10. The gain is set on 0 and the level is full with tone just past noon. Amp has mids on about 8, bass on about 3 (I just checked again, made a mistake earlier when I said 4), treble on about 6 or so. I have the presence set fairly high as well as that seemed to give it some cut. The gain is quite low, even with the tube screamer. Gain is on 2.5ish on the FAS Modern. Not much at all. I kept turning down the gain until it was as little as I could go while still being able to play comfortably and get the sound I want (I have good, consistent, solid technique so I don't need a lot of gain).

The PEQ block has another boost around 1.4khH (not much), some very small notches where the mud was in the mids, and again a high pass and low pass. If you could hear the two tones (I'll do a recording when I get time of my patch) you would surely say that my patch certainly does not have too much bass, and that his tone sounds like it's very low mid-mid heavy. I can hear what my patch is missing, I just am having trouble finding it and dialing it in.

Thanks everyone for your help, I'll try all these ideas.
 
Your problem is actually really simple to solve but it can only be solved by yourself when you are rehearsing with your band. If you can not hear yourself it is because of one, a couple or all of these things:
1. Your volume is too low.
2. Your bandmates are playing to loud.
3. You are standing in a position were the "sound beam" from your speaker is NOT aimed at your head.
4. IMPORTANT!You and someone else in the band try to occupy the same frequencies! bass player or guitarist or drummer.

You say you wear ear protection. IF your ear protection let through a lot of bass for example and the frequencies that your occupying are well damped by the ear pluggs, then you have to find another sound or play without ear plugs and with lower volume. The sound i have when rehearsing does not sound that good on its own. Lots of presence and highs but since the other guitar player has a very bassy and muffled clean sound it works.
Good luck.
 
Record the band without you. Bring that recording home and work on your patches against their back drop.

A band is a full strectrum assault. To be heard each member must find their little sliver of the EQ spectrum. Odds are you guys are walking all over one another resulting in mush.
 
Just try this 1 simple thing: Leave your amps where they are and switch sides of the room with your other guitarist. It sounds like his 4x12 is bouncing around to you and your 2x12 is bouncing over to him.
 
I agree with Matt, 200Hz is too low. Try boosting 400 or 500 to 1k. Boost with a low Q. Or, since you say you are screaming loud when you play alone with your drummer, what frequencies is your ear perceiving as loud? Maybe you need to find those and cut them. Most likely its the 1.5-4kHz range where our ear is sensitive. Cutting those will act as a boost for all the other frequencies and may sound more natural than boosting the mids. Also, watch that you don't have the mid and treble knob on the amp so high that the meat in the tone is lost.

Okay, one more thing and then I'm done, promise. Ask the other guitar player to cut at 500Hz. Several have already suggested this in generic terms. If his tone already sounds mid heavy, ask him to cut some of it back to make room for you.
 
Too much gain, not enough 800, 1k = not cutting. Cut gain and add mids and see what you've got then.
 
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