Parallel+Series FX chains: volume control issue

[j20056]

Say I have a preset like this:
Row1: In1 -> Amp1 -> Cab1 -> Out1
Row2: Cab1 -> FX1 -> FX2 -> Mixer1 ->Out1
Row3: Cab1 -> FX3 -> FX4 -> Mixer1 -> Out1

Essentially I have a dry signal, one parallel loop with two FX in series, and a second parallel loop with 2 other FX in series.
I have a number of scenes that set the Bypass for each FX depending on desired overall FX.
Now my question has to do with Wet-Dry Mix. I have setup Mixer1 to be controlled by an expression pedal.
When the pedal is in full heel position, Mixer1 is set to Row1 Gain to be 100% and all others to 0%, and via a cross fade, when the expression is fully in toe mode, the Mixer1 Row1 is at 0% gain, and Row2 and Row 3 are at 100%.
This way, I can control the wet-dry mix of this FX preset easily.
However there is a problem... If I am only using one FX row (2 or 3, say row 2), I would disable Row 3 by setting both FX3 and FX4 to be in Bypass mode via scene control. But what that does is to let the dry signal go through. I realize there is a concept of Mute FX and Mute, but it seems like neither is a good option. If I do Mute FX3 and Mute FX 4, the dry signal goes through Row3 when I only want it dry to go through Row1. In turn, if I use Mute and not Mute FX, then I lose the ability to disable FX4 but keep FX 3 working. So I am unsure how to handle this.
So trying to find a way to solve this if anyone has any ideas. A Multiplexer is not the answer because it would not allow the combination of parallel FX loops. I also have ran out of Volume blocks so cannot go that route either. Not sure there is an answer, understanding that my actual preset uses all 6 rows available.

 

[Bakerman]

If I do Mute FX3 and Mute FX 4, the dry signal goes through Row3 when I only want it dry to go through Row1

This would mean there was some dry signal going through that row while those blocks were engaged. Is that the intended result?

You could add some block like a null filter to that row and mute-bypass it as needed. Or just set FX3 or FX4 to an otherwise unused channel and mute-bypass it. This is approximately where seeing the actual preset might make it a bit easier to give more detailed advice BTW.

 

[j20056]

how can I show the preset?

 

[Bakerman]

Export it with Axe-Edit (Preset: Export Preset), attach the file to a post here ('Attach files' button below text box).

 

[j20056]

Thank you. I was sort of reluctant to do that, because the preset is a bit complex and I worry you would have to spend a lot of time deciphering what it does especially as there are 5 expression pedals connected to it, External1-4 and Pedal1, with funky cross-fades. Essentially this is a Wet/Dry/Wet setup combined with 4CM for an external MarkV amp, the latter to be used for Dry only. I'll use spreadsheet notation to reference specific cells in the grid, like A1 for top left and C14 for bottom right.
In any case, the overall approach is like this:
Row1: pre preamp chain. Out3 goes to input of a Mesa markV:25 as per 4CM. Send is if I want to ignore the tube amp and model dry myself.
Row2: In4 comes from the MarkV FX Send loop and Out4 goes back to FX Return loop. The reason for the VolPan in cells B2/C2 is for volumes swells in the MarkV loop.
Row3: Amp+Cab are set to replicate the Dry channel of the MarkV. The VolPans in B6/C6 are a cross fade to send the Dry signal either 100% to Out1, whihc is my stereo Genelec monitoring for Wet/Wet and "Phantom" Dry, or 100% to the real MarkV with a 1x12 Mesa cab. This is a real center Dry channel. I can control the cross fade with another expression pedal.
The Wet/Wet FX blocks are all located in cells D6:F11. Row 6 is connected to an Eventide rack unit, whereas Rows 5/6, which were the object of my original and simplified preset description, are local FX blocks.
Importantly, I should have mentioned that I have another expression pedal to control dry/wet mix as a cross fade (all my FX are 100% wet) and such pedal controls the two mixers in C12 and D12.
Lastly, the left side of Row6, with In3, is the piezo output of my guitar with goes out to Out1 after a couple of FX blocks.

So back to the discussion, the question was how to get the FX sub-grid D6:F11 to be programmed via Scenes to turn whichever FX block on or off, AND, assuming for instance that all FX blocks in row 5 are Bypassed, making sure that no dry signal goes through Row 5. I To be clear, the dry signal in question is the one simulated by the amp+cab in cell C3:C4 that closely matches the real amp. The issue is that I use an expression pedal top control the amount of wet/wet effects, so there doesn't seem to be any way to turn off the dry signal of block that happens to be bypassed by a given scene.

As I said, I don't really want you or anyone to torture yourself on this topic. I think what I'll do is save different presets with no shunt connections for presets that do not use a certain FX chain/row so the dry signal won't go through such row. I sort of like the idea of one master preset that does as much as possible so that any design tweaks I make are easier to propagate. Anyways, you were kind to offer to help, so I am providing the preset but I don't really want anyone to spend precious time to help as I think i'll handle via multiple FX sub-grids.

 

[Bakerman]

The delay & chorus will mute when bypassed as set there, mix at 100% and bypass mode = Mute FX Out. Were you intending to change that so they could be bypassed and still pass dry signal to Plex and/or Rotary at times?

In any case, if you're controlling the switching entirely via scenes, you could set any block in each row to an otherwise unused channel, bypassed with Mute In/Out bypass mode in the scenes where you don't want any signal from those rows.

 

[j20056]

Thank you. What I want is a way that if both FX in Row4/Row5/Row6 are Bypassed, then there is no dry signal going through either row. However, if one of them is turned On, and the other is Bypassed, then the first one needs to be on. I am unsure how to do that still at this point. The current Mute settings I have for the 4 FX blocks in D6:E7 are not relevant as I don't know how to set them for what I want to do.

 

[Bakerman]

Are you planning to use only scene changes to get these different FX on/off combinations?

Basically, it's usually possible to mute a row in any given scene without much hassle. Set a block to a spare channel and mute-bypass it, or at most add a block like filter or vol/pan to do the same. But there's no dry signal ever passing through rows 5 & 6 with the settings in that preset.

If you were toggling individual blocks and wanted this conditional muting of the dry signal only when every block in a row is bypassed, that would require additional setup likely involving a few more modifiers.

 

[j20056]

Thank you. It is ideally the latter as I no vol/pan left. What kind of modifiers are we talking about in your second suggestion? But worst case, I can do your first suggestion. Thank you again.

 

[Bakerman]

What kind of modifiers are we talking about in your second suggestion?

Ext Ctrls or Control Switches as bypass modifiers, plus the same sources for a separate dual-source modifier (Src1+Src2) set to mute the signal where needed when both sources = 0. Watch the CPU usage though because it's really high, 88% on a Turbo. Here's a more compact routing (shunts & connectors use a bit of CPU) that's functionally the same without the second send/return pair, with space (but maybe not CPU%) to add a few blocks in any row. I set both reverb qualities to Economy to bring the CPU% down a bit more because the front panel UI was pretty sluggish in the original state.

 

[j20056]

Thank you. Also removed the reverb in row 2 as it wasn't really needed. CPU down to 67%. Going to try and figure out how to implement your first sentence. It is amazing how great this forum, brand and product and people are. The Eventide forum for the H9000 get 1% of the traffic here.

 

[j20056]

Focusing on Row4, I set the Bypass to be controlled by my wet/dry mix expression pedal, so that as soon as the pedal is not full heel, then the Delay Bypass is on OFF. I did the same for PlexDly on the same expression pedal. I am using the same because I want just one pedal to control wet/dry mix. The problem here is that as soon as I engage the pedal, BOTH Delay and PlexDly become engaged, when my Scene may only want one of them engaged. I'm not sure what I w3ant to do can be achieved, because essentially I would need the ability to do some logic whereby if FX block i AND FX block j are Bypassed, then MUTE beyond FX Block j otherwise not.
I guess what I really want is Scenes to control which FX blocks are Bypassed, and expression pedal for overall wet/dry mix via the Mixer, and, whenever row4/5/6 are all bypassed, then mute everything so the dry signal is blocked. I think I need to insert a blocvk at the end of each FX chains in rows 4/5/6 to MUTE and control that via Scenes. Seems like a Null filter with ByPass set to Mute might be the way to go?

 

[j20056]

OK so I got it to work via Scenes. I set all FX bypass to Thru and I added a Null Filter at the end of each FX rows 4 and 5. I set the filters to Bypass = Mute and I control the Bypass via Scenes. The cross-fade via Mixer works as prior. This is 100% perfect!!! @Bakerman, I do not know how to thank you!!!! CPU is at 68% and I have a Preset Template that I can use for any derived preset that I want to build although my sub presets will mostly act as Scene managers.
This is extremely awesome and thank you again sir!

 

[Bakerman]

The null filter will work and might be useful for a template. Or you can set a block that's already there to another channel with an appropriate bypass mode to stop the signal.