Parallel/Series effects and the effect on mix

H

Hopper_

Member
I am beating my head in with this one.

I have been going between putting delay and reverb in series and parallel and seeing what the effect is on the overall mix.
I need trails. So my option with routing in series is to set the bypass mode to "mute FX in". This brings about a problem with using a reverb preset I have made with a 45% mix level. While bypassed, my overall signal gets decreased. Moving the mix parameter (even while bypassed) changes the volume of the bypassed signal. This will not work, especially if I want to use a 100% wet signal but have the effect bypassed. No sound at all.

Switching to parallel is great except when you want that "washed out", mostly reverb/delay kind of sound. That is (understandably) not possible with parallel processing.

Is there a best of both worlds here? Im getting lost in the weeds on series vs parallel and I need help.
 
I have my rig set up with both series and parallel time-based effects. Depending on the tone goal I can get different levels of ambience by using some or all of them. For washed-out tones, it's achieved via a culmination of reverb, delay, and plex blocks running in parallel.

At the end of the chain is the 2nd Reverb block running in series with a mix that fluctuates a bit but ultimately it's to bring cohesion to the different parts and for basic verb needs.

In my use case, the best of both worlds is to use blocks in series and parallel as it'll open up different possibilities. If trails are important use the Input Mix parameter instead for parallel blocks to get control over the wet signal without boosting/cutting the dry.
 
strabes said:
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Reverb_block#Mix

In series set the mix to 50%, level to 3dB (to compensate for the decreased dry level due to the reverb's mix law), and use the input gain parameter to control the amount of reverb. Then for your 100% wet sound just set the mix to 100% and adjust the input gain as necessary.
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In the case of using a 100% wet delay effect in series and wanting tails, I would need to set the bypass mode to "mute fx in" which would mute my dry signal. How can I achieve this 100% wet effect with tails? Is it trails or tails?
 
mr_fender said:
If you've got the delay set to 100% wet in a series block there is no dry signal passing.
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I think the point of the question was: How do you get trails from that type of "100% mix, no dry while engaged" delay effect after bypassing the block, while also bringing dry signal back into the mix?

With the normal Delay block, a mix modifier could reduce mix from 100% to 50% on bypass (via bypass modifier to do this all with one Control Switch), bringing dry to normal level without affecting trail level due to the unique Delay mix law.

Otherwise, a parallel dry path will work. To avoid setting up any modifiers for bringing the dry signal in/out, you could set delay mix/level for unity dry gain, use Mute In bypass mode, and invert the signal either in the delay path or a parallel dry path with a null filter set for Phase Invert = Both. Then just engage/bypass the delay with a normal bypass switch. Engaged = no dry signal heard; bypassed = trails w/ dry signal heard. Example preset attached.
 

Attachments

  • 100% delay trail bypass.syx
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Edit: I was incorrect about the apparent inconsistency mentioned below.

The behavior I never noticed before is on delay and reverb blocks the mix control affects the dry even when the block is bypassed, which I believe is what is causing the OP's issue. My understanding was we're supposed to use the bypass mode parameter (and killdry switch) to control what happens to the wet & dry when the block is bypassed, and all blocks behave like a shunt when bypassed (aside from the tails from the bypass mode setting).

Curious about the reasoning for the existing behavior as it seems inconsistent with how other blocks' mix settings behave when they're bypassed i.e. a bypassed 100% wet chorus does not eliminate the dry.
 
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strabes said:
The behavior I never noticed before is on delay and reverb blocks the mix control affects the dry even when the block is bypassed.
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Only with Mute FX In or Mute FX Out bypass mode. Otherwise dry is simply put at unity (with Thru bypass mode) or muted (with Mute In or Mute Out bypass mode) when the block is bypassed.

strabes said:
seems inconsistent with how other blocks' mix settings behave when they're bypassed i.e. with a 100% wet chorus the dry is unaffected when the chorus block is bypassed
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A chorus set for Mute Fx Out bypass mode will allow block mix/level/balance to affect the dry signal while bypassed. So, there isn't really any inconsistency with the way bypass modes work. It's just the sort of effect where thru bypass tends to be more useful/common.
 
It's a function of the Mute FX IN bypass mode. It keeps the dry signal level consistent between engaged and bypassed so there are no big jumps in the dry level when you bypass the effect.
 
Bakerman said:
Only with Mute FX In or Mute FX Out bypass mode. Otherwise dry is simply put at unity (with Thru bypass mode) or muted (with Mute In or Mute Out bypass mode) when the block is bypassed.



A chorus set for Mute Fx Out bypass mode will allow block mix/level/balance to affect the dry signal while bypassed. So, there isn't really any inconsistency with the way bypass modes work. It's just the sort of effect where thru bypass tends to be more useful/common.
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mr_fender said:
It's a function of the Mute FX IN bypass mode. It keeps the dry signal level consistent between engaged and bypassed so there are no big jumps in the dry level when you bypass the effect.
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Got it, thanks
 
strabes said:
The behavior I never noticed before is on delay and reverb blocks the mix control affects the dry even when the block is bypassed, which I believe is what is causing the OP's issue. My understanding was we're supposed to use the bypass mode parameter (and killdry switch) to control what happens to the wet & dry when the block is bypassed, and all blocks behave like a shunt when bypassed (aside from the tails from the bypass mode setting).

Curious about the reasoning for the existing behavior as it seems inconsistent with how other blocks' mix settings behave when they're bypassed i.e. a bypassed 100% wet chorus does not eliminate the dry.
Click to expand...
I did notice some difference there as well. Also, interesting on the 3dB boost for 50% mix, I had no idea that it was a thing, I could just hear that my dry seemed to have dropped and my "big cloud" reverb has exactly 3dB boost!
 
Gonash said:
I did notice some difference there as well. Also, interesting on the 3dB boost for 50% mix, I had no idea that it was a thing, I could just hear that my dry seemed to have dropped and my "big cloud" reverb has exactly 3dB boost!
Click to expand...
I was actually incorrect about the behavior, the mix only affects the dry when bypassed when the bypass mode is set to mute fx in or mute fx out.

Regarding the -3dB dry at 50% wet, this is why I just run my reverb in parallel at 100% mix. I never use 100% wet (no dry) sounds so it's a good choice for me.
 
Yeah Mix levels above 50% are much less common for delay and reverb in series, so the current bypass options tend to work well most of the time.

For really high mix levels, things get a bit more complicated, and you have to decide which is more important, a consistent overall signal level or a consistent dry signal level between the engaged and bypassed states. You can't have both.
 
De-mutiplexing and De-mixing blocks would make a lot of things (this included) easier to get working by routing or splitting the signal down different routes. Everything being controlled from the output end via mix knobs works for a good chunk of things, but some things like this are more difficult to set up and wouldbe easy peasy by switching or controlling the level of the signal on the way in.... Most mixing boards - even the cheap ones - have aux bus sends to do this....

De-MUX is easy to picture - it is literally the Multiplexer in reverse. De-MIX could be done a couple ways. Simplest would be Mixer in reverse, but in my best dreams, it is more or less six VolPans in a box with a common input....
 
strabes said:
I was actually incorrect about the behavior, the mix only affects the dry when bypassed when the bypass mode is set to mute fx in or mute fx out.

Regarding the -3dB dry at 50% wet, this is why I just run my reverb in parallel at 100% mix. I never use 100% wet (no dry) sounds so it's a good choice for me.
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I run them at Mute Fx In, so checks out.
I run some presets with extensive parallel routing, but had really great results with running most of my chain in series lately.

The best of both worlds for me was to have one reverb going in parallel to the whole stereo chain (still in front of the amps though) after the stereo path starts and then using the plex block as my "cloud" reverb at the end of the series chain after the delays, since it seems to be true stereo, unlike the actual reverb block. Parallel sure is more convenient though, I just found the series more authentic to how my rig sounds when running pedals.
 
Hopper_ said:
I am beating my head in with this one.

I have been going between putting delay and reverb in series and parallel and seeing what the effect is on the overall mix.
I need trails. So my option with routing in series is to set the bypass mode to "mute FX in". This brings about a problem with using a reverb preset I have made with a 45% mix level. While bypassed, my overall signal gets decreased. Moving the mix parameter (even while bypassed) changes the volume of the bypassed signal. This will not work, especially if I want to use a 100% wet signal but have the effect bypassed. No sound at all.

Switching to parallel is great except when you want that "washed out", mostly reverb/delay kind of sound. That is (understandably) not possible with parallel processing.

Is there a best of both worlds here? Im getting lost in the weeds on series vs parallel and I need help.
Click to expand...
You could actually run each effect in parallel and kill-dry, but then in series. This would solve your mix issue while also letting you get washy.

e.g. Delay in kill-dry parallel with dry (shunt), then merge that (in another shunt) and go into reverb in kill-dry parallel with dry (shunt) again.

The flexibility of the Fractal grid wins again.
 
John K. said:
You could actually run each effect in parallel and kill-dry, but then in series. This would solve your mix issue while also letting you get washy.

e.g. Delay in kill-dry parallel with dry (shunt), then merge that (in another shunt) and go into reverb in kill-dry parallel with dry (shunt) again.

The flexibility of the Fractal grid wins again.
Click to expand...
Can you show me what that would look like? I don't quite understand how that routing looks.
 
Hopper_ said:
Can you show me what that would look like? I don't quite understand how that routing looks.
Click to expand...
killydry-series.png

This won't do anything for the earlier scenario of actually making the dry signal quieter/absent when all these effects are active. But, this routing w/ killdry = on for each block is equivalent to setting the mix to whatever and block level as needed for unity dry gain in series (without killdry).

(Also note that killdry doesn't accomplish anything notable vs. mix = 100% and block level as desired with that routing.)
 
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Bakerman said:
View attachment 140015

This won't do anything for the earlier scenario of actually making the dry signal quieter/absent when all these effects are active. But, this routing w/ killdry = on for each block is equivalent to setting the mix to whatever and block level as needed for unity dry gain in series (without killdry).

(Also note that killdry doesn't accomplish anything notable vs. mix = 100% and block level as desired with that routing.)
Click to expand...
Actually what I was thinking of looks different than the above pic.
I'm actually hurting my brain trying to figure out all the ways the signal flows in that one! Haha

I don't have a unit to connect to the editor at the office, but I just meant this:

1715174761891.png

This is basically just series. There's no other benefit to running the effects in parallel like this except to fix the issue with the dry signal you were having before. This method leaves the dry signal untouched all the way through. (Make sure bypass behavior is set to "Mute In".)

...unless I'm misunderstanding the dry signal level issue you're having. I've only ever run parallel for a long time, so I've never had this problem.

Hopper_ said:
Switching to parallel is great except when you want that "washed out", mostly reverb/delay kind of sound. That is (understandably) not possible with parallel processing.

Is there a best of both worlds here? Im getting lost in the weeds on series vs parallel and I need help.
Click to expand...
Judging from this bit ^, it seemed like you didn't actually want parallel effects, just to fix the dry signal issue.
 
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