Out 1 block clipping

cbaseford said:
Interesting. I’ll try swapping to Output 2. Again, having been accustomed to and XLR line level equipment being truly unity gain, this whole concept of level set at 0, but having a big gain bump is a little strange. Let alone having one set of outputs have it and one doesn’t , without any visual or labeled indication of it.
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Curious, what’s another unit you use that is Unity Gain?
 
chris said:
Curious, what’s another unit you use that is Unity Gain?
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pretty much any piece of outboard studio equipment (eq, compressor, etc.), especially when in bypass or when not doing any sort of processing. For a specific example of something I'm staring at while typing this ;) Dangerous BAX EQ.
 
i think it makes sense for a specific single effect to be unity gain - delay, comp, reverb, eq, etc.

i think it also makes sense for a all-in-one guitar processor that has several outputs to be able to have different outputs for different purposes.

used as primarily intended - a guitar processor for playing guitar - i'm glad the main output (Out 1) has a large range of output for sending to mixers and other typical gear used in that context. fortunately, we also have multiple outputs with specific capabilities like Unity Gain for those situations.
 
I don't think the issue is the capabilities of the outputs. I think the issue is the way it's presented can be a little confusing, as can be seen in this thread and the number of other times this has come up on the forum. In other words, there's nothing wrong with the way it works, but IMHO it would help alleviate the confusion if it was made clearer where that gain is being applied.
 
Simple test. Feed a Synth block running a 1kHz sine wave directly into the OUT 1, 2, 3 and 4 blocks in parallel. OUT 1 and 2 block meters show -6 dB. OUT 3 and 4 block meters show -26 dB with everything set to 0 dB in the OUT blocks.

The OUT 1 and 2 blocks apply 20 dB of signal gain before their meters. OUT 3 and 4 block are unity gain. This gain boost is not explicitly mentioned in the manual but rather implied by the line level vs unity gain distinction of the different outputs. Perhaps adding a label in the OUT 1 and OUT 2 blocks stating something like "+20 dB over unity gain" or at least mention it specifically in the manual might help alleviate some ambiguity.

The +4 dBu / -10 dBV setting in the I/O menu for Outputs 1 and 2 does not affect this gain boost on the grid. The -11.782 dB difference between the +4 dBu setting and the -10 dBV setting happens on the analog side of the D/A converters I believe and is in addition to the +20 dB difference from the unity gain outputs 3 and 4.

Edit: Apologies, I missed that this was in the FM3 section. No Synth block on the FM3, but the same applies though, except on the FM3 OUT 1 is line level (+20dB) and OUT 2 is unity gain while on the FM9, OUT 1 and OUT2 are both line level (+20dB) and OUT 3 is unity gain.
 
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mr_fender said:
The OUT 1 and 2 blocks apply 20 dB of signal gain before their meters.
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Well, yes, the 20dB is indisputable. The point cbaseford is making is that he wasn't expecting that. Considering how often people are caught by surprise by this, it's hard to disagree with him.

This is just speculation on my part, but I suspect this is a vestige from the AxeFX II which had dedicated fx loop i/o. It doesn't make as much sense these days with the ins and outs no longer being dedicated to a purpose like that. It's helpful to have the 20dB, but IMHO you can have that without the confusion by simply making the default level in the Out1 block set to 20dB. That way you get the helpful 20dB without the confusion about where it came from.
 
True a default block Level of +20 dB instead of 0 dB would give a visual indication of the inherent gain boost on the those blocks. Could also maybe add an option there in the OUT blocks for Line Level vs Unity Gain output as well with each output defaulting as needed for each setting.
 
mr_fender said:
True a default block Level of +20 dB instead of 0 dB would give a visual indication of the inherent gain boost on the those blocks. Could also maybe add an option there in the OUT blocks for Line Level vs Unity Gain output as well with each output defaulting as needed for each setting.
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But the Output block can add 20dB to what it is already putting out... So then would it need a range up to +40?
 
GlennO said:
This is just speculation on my part, but I suspect this is a vestige from the AxeFX II which had dedicated fx loop i/o.
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Output 2 on the Axe Fx II wasn't really any different functionality, it just used a single block for in/out instead of separate blocks.

I don't think this was an oversight... The different outputs have different purposes and the output levels match the purpose.

Also, I think on Axe Fx II, connecting Input 1 directly to Output 1 did not actually have a level increase... But it's been 5+ years and I don't remember for sure, and I never did that myself.
 
unix-guy said:
But the Output block can add 20dB to what it is already putting out... So then would it need a range up to +40?
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No just the visual indication would change. It wouldn't be a hidden +20 dB, but rather shown as +20dB on the level knob.

Edit: Re-read your response. Yes the range of the level knob would then likely need to be recentered by 20 dB so the max would show +40 dB instead, which is a truer indication of the amount of gain the block is actually providing.
 
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GlennO said:
This is just speculation on my part, but I suspect this is a vestige from the AxeFX II which had dedicated fx loop i/o
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It seems to me more like a "fix" for amp block having low levels typically. For example, the notorious ODS-100 levels would be what - minus 40dB compared to unity gain of Out1 didn't have the boost?

I've had -18dB applied to Out1 for a year or so now. I thought I needed that because my pickups are too hot. Turned out pickups have nothing to do with it, as Amp block will lower the output signal by many dBs anyway.
 
Chromatizm said:
It seems to me more like a "fix" for amp block having low levels typically. For example, the notorious ODS-100 levels would be what - minus 40dB compared to unity gain of Out1 didn't have the boost?

I've had -18dB applied to Out1 for a year or so now. I thought I needed that because my pickups are too hot. Turned out pickups have nothing to do with it, as Amp block will lower the output signal by many dBs anyway.
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Are you asking whether the output block should apply the gain it currently does? The answer is "yes", but whether the output block applies gain or not doesn't really matter to the issue this thread is about. The only issue is how to make it more obvious what it's doing. Just like the OP here, lot of people have been confused over the years to discover the output block is applying a digital gain that's not apparent in the UI.

One solution would be to change the display scale of the output 1/2 block level parameter so it shows 20 dB more than it currently does. Another solution would be to add a on/off switch to the output block for 20 dB of gain.

Either way, the output block would work the same way it does now. The only difference is the function it performs would be clearer. This is obviously not a high priority problem, but it has led to a fair bit of confusion.
 
GlennO said:
Are you asking whether the output block should apply the gain it currently does?
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Oh no, I myself have a few threads here on this topic with many screenshots and tests :) I was that "confused guy" for many moons!
I'm clear on the issue now and it's not really an issue for me anymore, but it did cost me oh so many hours and posts to figure all out. It really should be made clear from the very start, from the first pages of the manual IMO :)
 
GlennO said:
Are you asking whether the output block should apply the gain it currently does? The answer is "yes", but whether the output block applies gain or not doesn't really matter to the issue this thread is about. The only issue is how to make it more obvious what it's doing. Just like the OP here, lot of people have been confused over the years to discover the output block is applying a digital gain that's not apparent in the UI.

One solution would be to change the display scale of the output 1/2 block level parameter so it shows 20 dB more than it currently does. Another solution would be to add a on/off switch to the output block for 20 dB of gain.

Either way, the output block would work the same way it does now. The only difference is the function it performs would be clearer. This is obviously not a high priority problem, but it has led to a fair bit of confusion.
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Really appreciate your contributions on this topic GlennO!
 
GlennO said:
I don't think the issue is the capabilities of the outputs. I think the issue is the way it's presented can be a little confusing, as can be seen in this thread and the number of other times this has come up on the forum. In other words, there's nothing wrong with the way it works, but IMHO it would help alleviate the confusion if it was made clearer where that gain is being applied.
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BINGO!!! 4 out 5 dentists agree that a balanced XLR out of a piece of studio gear will be the same level as the input without any processing applied. If it's not the case, there could easily have been a label notating as such, or the Level in the output block would default to +20 instead (with 0 being a true unity gain).
 
Eh anything with a volume/level knob that doesn’t have a 0 Unity detent in the middle is assume isn’t unity at any position.
 
GlennO said:
Are you asking whether the output block should apply the gain it currently does? The answer is "yes", but whether the output block applies gain or not doesn't really matter to the issue this thread is about. The only issue is how to make it more obvious what it's doing. Just like the OP here, lot of people have been confused over the years to discover the output block is applying a digital gain that's not apparent in the UI.

One solution would be to change the display scale of the output 1/2 block level parameter so it shows 20 dB more than it currently does. Another solution would be to add a on/off switch to the output block for 20 dB of gain.

Either way, the output block would work the same way it does now. The only difference is the function it performs would be clearer. This is obviously not a high priority problem, but it has led to a fair bit of confusion.
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Thank you for all your clarification on this 🤘🏼🤘🏼

I'm absolutely fine with the way it currently operates and honestly, the only thing the could make this whole issue disappear is for the manual to clarify this. But it seems as though every time this comes up, "this is a unity gain device" is the go-to response with little regard for how 90% of every other Unity gain device functions. Up until this thread, I didn't know the reason for why, but I've always had my DI path set to -20db on the output block to have it be an accurate level for re-amping (fractal or a real amp). Honestly, I don't really need to change anything, but now at least everyone knows what we're dealing with.

"...and knowing is half the battle!" (G.I. Joe).
 
Chromatizm said:
It seems to me more like a "fix" for amp block having low levels typically. For example, the notorious ODS-100 levels would be what - minus 40dB compared to unity gain of Out1 didn't have the boost?

I've had -18dB applied to Out1 for a year or so now. I thought I needed that because my pickups are too hot. Turned out pickups have nothing to do with it, as Amp block will lower the output signal by many dBs anyway.
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Huh? The Amp block already has it's own Level control that is more than capable...
 
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