Original samples for live covers? (legality)

Morbid

Morbid

Inspired
Just a thought I had, and I thought I'd pick the brains of the experienced here.

Working on a new local cover band (mainly for fun and some extra pocket change), and one of the things we've all agreed we want to be able to do, is trigger certain samples from the original songs, when needed.

For example, the opening for Breaking Benjamin's "Blow Me Away", or some of the reverse effects in "Another One Bites The Dust"

I can't think of a reason why it would, but just in case; could any legal ramification come from this ya think?
 
Samples need clearing, permission. You can’t use other’s mechanical works like that.

Now, if you recreate them accurately on your own that’s a whole other thing.
 
iaresee said:
Samples need clearing, permission. You can’t use other’s mechanical works like that.

Now, if you recreate them accurately on your own that’s a whole other thing.
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Damn, what a bummer. Makes sense though I suppose. Thanks for the input!
 
iaresee said:
Samples need clearing, permission. You can’t use other’s mechanical works like that.
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I was always under the impression that the copyright laws that covered the use of samples were in regards the the unauthorized duplication and distribution of someone's recorded work. In other words, using the samples in your own recordings. But if you were using it in a live performance setting only, and you weren't recording it, then your use would fall under the same laws that cover a DJ spinning records in a club setting. If a venue is paying their ASCAP fees, then you would be fine. But you technically couldn't record your shows, post videos, make demos for promoting your cover band with these samples, etc., because then you would have duplicated the recorded work. Is that not the case?
 
Fro said:
I was always under the impression that the copyright laws that covered the use of samples were in regards the the unauthorized duplication and distribution of someone's recorded work. In other words, using the samples in your own recordings. But if you were using it in a live performance setting only, and you weren't recording it, then your use would fall under the same laws that cover a DJ spinning records in a club setting. If a venue is paying their ASCAP fees, then you would be fine. But you technically couldn't record your shows, post videos, make demos for promoting your cover band with these samples, etc., because then you would have duplicated the recorded work. Is that not the case?
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If you're getting paid, you need to pay them. Look at this way: you can't take other's work and use it to make money without also compensating them.
 
iaresee said:
If you're getting paid, you need to pay them. Look at this way: you can't take other's work and use it to make money without also compensating them.
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But that's covered by the venue paying ASCAP, or BMI, the same way with a DJ. The DJ doesn't need permission for every record they play. It also applies to any intro music you use. Yes, they artist should and does get paid. But that's under the jurisdiction of the venues agreement with the performance rights organization and the yearly licensing fees that they pay.
 
Fro said:
But that's covered by the venue paying ASCAP, or BMI, the same way with a DJ. The DJ doesn't need permission for every record they play. It also applies to any intro music you use. Yes, they artist should and does get paid. But that's under the jurisdiction of the venues agreement with the performance rights organization and the yearly licensing fees that they pay.
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Nope. Those fees don't cover samples. You don't have to take my word for it: https://www.ascap.com/playback/2011/01/features/limelight.aspx
 
I think there is what is technically the law and what would have a realistic chance of being enforced. If I played a bar gig for 25 people and got $20 take home pay don’t know ignorance I’d make sure my $0.15 or whatever was getting submitted to the appropriate party. Not saying it’s right, but I think it’s realistic.

That all said, I think using samples and such is more trouble than it’s worth. Audience isn’t going to care that much, plus, if your playing samples folks might think your doing other backing tracks etc, and that is a whole can of worms.

So in short, I think you could “safely” get away with it, but just not really worth doing.
 
I was an early adopter of using backing tracks - mainly synth pads, percussive loops, backing vocals and rhythm guitar fills. I was tempted a time or two to lift an original recording but found it more trouble than it's worth. The main problem I found was original recordings were not always in a tempo we could match. For instance, I'd drag the recording in to my DAW and find that the tempo was 97.4 BPM but we were limited to 97 or 98 - only whole numbers in our click.

While I'm not a keyboardist, I found it pretty easy to make my own backing tracks with the plug ins and instruments available in Logic. Making my own avoided stealing others work and I could set the tempo, key and groove that my band used. I recommend giving it a try. Most DAW's have everything you need built in these days. It's also a pretty enjoyable way to spend a few hours. You'll be amazed at how close you can get to the original.
 
iaresee said:
Nope. Those fees don't cover samples. You don't have to take my word for it: https://www.ascap.com/playback/2011/01/features/limelight.aspx
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From the referenced article: "Sampling" involves taking an existing piece of copyrighted music and combining it with another to create a new work.

When they say "new work", I believe they mean a new piece of music that is in a fixed medium, a recording. The Library of Congress definition is "A work is "created" when it is fixed into a book, tape or electronic medium for the first time. For example, a song can be fixed in sheet music, a digital tape or both." In the beginning of the ASCAP article, they even state, "Licenses allow you to legally distribute, cover, and adapt music you don't own or control. Are you recording a cover song or adapting/altering an existing work? Do you want to include a sampled recording, or re-create the music entirely?"

They particular article doesn't appear to address any live performance usage, and the fees that venues pay to cover those costs.

Full disclosure, I am not by any means a source for legal advice, so I will freely admit I could be way off base on this. But I do know that it is a different set of laws that cover performance vs recording. I would find it very odd that I can play the entire recording of Van Halen's "Jump" before I take the stage and have that covered by the venues licensing agreement, but I couldn't play 5 seconds of it.

I also agree with lqdsnddist. Using samples is more trouble than it's worth. The audience won't care. It's also one more thing to worry about with the mix.
 
I guess you all haven't heard of 7th Heaven. They're the ones who do 30 songs in 30 minutes with tons of background stuff going on. They've been around since the early 80's and have made a very decent living. However, I can't say whether or not they record the tracks themselves, they probably do, they're all good singers and musicians. They run a lot of keyboard and backing vocal tracks. Anyway, what I'm getting to is the big stars got other things to worry about rather than a "pitiful band of rebels. I'm afraid the shield generator will be quite operational." How often do you hear of a starving musician being sued? This is "Point/Counterpoint." ;)


Edit: Looks like I'm late to the party, busy thread...
 
Fro said:
Using samples is more trouble than it's worth. The audience won't care. It's also one more thing to worry about with the mix.
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You wouldn't believe how many bands are doing it here in Chicago, along with huge projection screens running videos behind the drummer. They make better than 100K each year, and have plenty of roadies.
 
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gigawatt said:
You wouldn't believe how many bands are doing it here in Chicago, along with huge projection screens running videos behind the drummer. They make better than 100K each year, and have plenty of roadies.
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I should rephrase: More trouble than it's worth for a guy like me in a crappy 3 piece Milwaukee bar band, lol. I guess I need to up my game! I can't let Chicago upstage me! :)
 
@Bakerman to the rescue! Haven't seen you since the Petrucciforum days, man. Hope you're doing well. I've always been amused to know we share the same first and last name. :sunglasses:

Thanks everyone for the input! I always appreciate when the minds of the fractal forum come together to dish out some opinions and experience. Whenever I'm in doubt of something music related, I come here and find myself able to leave with a fairly confident answer.
 
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In my Police tribute band we used some tracks and samples - intro to Synchronicity II comes to mind. A few other tracks I made from MIDI and my own playing. Wasn't too concerned - anymore than playing 3 hours of cover tunes in a bar! Hopefully Sting won't come knocking.
 
sskkmm said:
In my Police tribute band we used some tracks and samples - intro to Synchronicity II comes to mind. A few other tracks I made from MIDI and my own playing. Wasn't too concerned - anymore than playing 3 hours of cover tunes in a bar! Hopefully Sting won't come knocking.
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You're probably safe unless you start covering Metallica tunes. They have a reputation of suing pretty much everyone for everything (similar to Apple).
 
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Legally? No way around purchasing a copyright that will allow the type of use you intend. We're "legally" supposed to drive the speed limit, signal when turning, stop at stop signs, etc....

What's normally done? Use whatever you want, however you want.
 
Sonofiam said:
No way around purchasing a copyright that will allow the type of use you intend.
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Except that in the specific usage that the OP is doing, it's not his responsibility to obtain the rights. It falls under the licensing that most venues already pay to allow music in the first place. So it is all legal, and can be done with no worries, which is cool.
 
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