Opinions on Power amps And cabs please

[Jay Mitchell]

My ass (I am standing with my back towards my backline) and my trousers tells me that every IR through a real EVM12L gives a much more realistic tube amp response.

Interesting. I tend to rely on my ears and my brain for this kind of thing.

And that this finding potentially threatens the sale of the so called superb FRFR Frazier stuff

Bwahaha. There is no possible speculation ("finding") on your part that could possibly have the slightest effect on my customers' decisions. While I appreciate your concern, you need not worry about my company. We're doing just fine with no assistance from you....

If you are so good than start designing a driver that does the job not only for Jazz but also for all the amps in the AFX.

I already did. In making this statement, you conveniently ignore that my monitor works as well with Marshall and Bogner amp sims as for cleaner ones. And it will make your pants legs move, if you are unconcerned enough with hearing damage to operate it that loud and ignorant enough to fire it past your calves.

Like others I have experienced the difference between FRFR and the EVM12L.

Unlike the speed of light in a vacuum, "FRFR" is not a universal constant. It really matters which "FRFR" you try, and there is no way for you to generalize to all of them based on your limited experience.

 

[smilefan]

Others on this board have attested that Jay's monitor performs at a level that
shames any commercial product most of us have access to. I have heard some
truly pro level monitors (EAW's) and the Axe sounds better thru them than my rig (much
more spatial information, among other things). But they were so expensive and heavy
it just didn't make sense ($5,000 per speaker). The Axe/GT800/EVM combo is a
great sounding rig with very satisfying 'amp in room' feel that I can afford and acquire
easily.

Monitors that occupy the performance stratosphere, like Jay's, are beyond the reach of most.

But they do exist, and will pull sounds and qualities out of your Axe you didn't know
were in there.

 

[paulmapp8306]

I have to agree with Smilefan here.

Jay knows his stuff - thats fact. What he says is also fact. However the big thing here is "the FRFR syatem". Jay designes his own and has posted (a long time ago) that his system is not commercially available, nor (I believe) would be commercially economical to do so.

Having tried many many FRFR systems, I only found one that worked anything like a Power amp and cab for backline use. By this I mean that while frfr systems work in a bedroom, in a recording studio, and for onstage monitoring of a FOH sound - if you want your system to produce the main sound they fall short.

the one i tried were (a now discontinued) Coda speaker. Cost was over £2000 for a single 12" enclosure. Im sure Jay is playing with stuff a LEAST this good and probably better given his buissiness - but for most thats too much. i get the £2k for the AFX, and maybe £2k on a guitar so why not £2k on the amp system - and I get that a VHT power amp with good quality cab is getting into the same ballpark, but for many its too much.

While a traditional guitar cab and speakers works from a feel perspective (for much less cash than the required FRFR system), you loose the ability to have the cab sims. Personally I dont have a problem with that. The variation I get is enough, and its just like having multiple heads top plug into my one cab.

Then comes an EVM12l loaded cab. This - while still a compromise - is a very good fit of traditional feel and with the ability to use cab sims (maybe not perfectly neutral but enough). Cost? Well for a 2x12 cab, the EVs and a Matrix amp, around £1000 in the UK. In the US, I dont know. The MAtrix is more, but the EVs will be less so ????

anyway, compare that with the £2000 for the only FRFR i found remotly good enough (there will be others, but more expensive still - which TBH frieghtens me ) and the EVs make perfect sense.

Wjhat DADA is trying to say - in his very own often sarcastic style (in a good way mostly) is that for MOST people who HAVENT got access to thousands of £/$/Euro for a "propper" (by Jays definition) FRR system, the EVs add something "mechanical and real" that FRFR systems in a sensible price range (and the most commonly touted here, such as FBTs, Verves, QSCs etc) dont have. It sounds and feels like it should, which can only be a good thing for those of us wanting a more traditional stage set-up.

Ill quite happily take one of Jays enclosures and trial it for a while - and give some "user" feedback Im sure Its top notch - but thats not going to happen. Until I become rich the Matrix and traditional cab will do. EVMs will be added in a few months Im sure.

 

[dk_ace]

I have to agree with Smilefan here.

Jay knows his stuff - thats fact. What he says is also fact. However the big thing here is "the FRFR syatem". Jay designes his own and has posted (a long time ago) that his system is not commercially available, nor (I believe) would be commercially economical to do so.

Having tried many many FRFR systems, I only found one that worked anything like a Power amp and cab for backline use. By this I mean that while frfr systems work in a bedroom, in a recording studio, and for onstage monitoring of a FOH sound - if you want your system to produce the main sound they fall short.

the one i tried were (a now discontinued) Coda speaker. Cost was over £2000 for a single 12" enclosure. Im sure Jay is playing with stuff a LEAST this good and probably better given his buissiness - but for most thats too much. i get the £2k for the AFX, and maybe £2k on a guitar so why not £2k on the amp system - and I get that a VHT power amp with good quality cab is getting into the same ballpark, but for many its too much.

While a traditional guitar cab and speakers works from a feel perspective (for much less cash than the required FRFR system), you loose the ability to have the cab sims. Personally I dont have a problem with that. The variation I get is enough, and its just like having multiple heads top plug into my one cab.

Then comes an EVM12l loaded cab. This - while still a compromise - is a very good fit of traditional feel and with the ability to use cab sims (maybe not perfectly neutral but enough). Cost? Well for a 2x12 cab, the EVs and a Matrix amp, around £1000 in the UK. In the US, I dont know. The MAtrix is more, but the EVs will be less so ????

anyway, compare that with the £2000 for the only FRFR i found remotly good enough (there will be others, but more expensive still - which TBH frieghtens me ) and the EVs make perfect sense.

Wjhat DADA is trying to say - in his very own often sarcastic style (in a good way mostly) is that for MOST people who HAVENT got access to thousands of £/$/Euro for a "propper" (by Jays definition) FRR system, the EVs add something "mechanical and real" that FRFR systems in a sensible price range (and the most commonly touted here, such as FBTs, Verves, QSCs etc) dont have. It sounds and feels like it should, which can only be a good thing for those of us wanting a more traditional stage set-up.

Ill quite happily take one of Jays enclosures and trial it for a while - and give some "user" feedback Im sure Its top notch - but thats not going to happen. Until I become rich the Matrix and traditional cab will do. EVMs will be added in a few months Im sure.

I agree that the limitation for most people is the FRFR amplification systems that they use, but an EVM12L is not remotely close to FRFR. Can you run cab sims through it and get tones that you subjectively like? I'm sure most could. Are those sounds really representative of the amp and cab rigs you're modeling? In almost all cases, no.

The bottom line is to buy what you can afford and makes sense for you as amplification. Whatever that is, make great music with it and learn to get the best from it. Don't try to convince yourself or others that it is something it isn't though. An EVM12L cab is not FRFR nor will it ever be. It was never intended to be. Just enjoy it for what it is and make great music with it.

FWIW, I don't get hung up on the quality of amplification I'm using in most cases. I've learned to adjust to a lot of different playing situations and make the most of it whether it's a good backline, crappy monitors, great monitors, in-ears, etc. I've had the oppurtunity to use some really great equipment that made me a believer in the upper echelon of FRFR gear, and I've had to suffer through lousy in-ear and bad monitor gigs too. I've learned to play well and have fun in any of those situations.

D

 

[BBN]

I have to agree with Smilefan here.

Jay knows his stuff - thats fact. What he says is also fact. However the big thing here is "the FRFR syatem". Jay designes his own and has posted (a long time ago) that his system is not commercially available, nor (I believe) would be commercially economical to do so.

Having tried many many FRFR systems, I only found one that worked anything like a Power amp and cab for backline use. By this I mean that while frfr systems work in a bedroom, in a recording studio, and for onstage monitoring of a FOH sound - if you want your system to produce the main sound they fall short.

the one i tried were (a now discontinued) Coda speaker. Cost was over £2000 for a single 12" enclosure. Im sure Jay is playing with stuff a LEAST this good and probably better given his buissiness - but for most thats too much. i get the £2k for the AFX, and maybe £2k on a guitar so why not £2k on the amp system - and I get that a VHT power amp with good quality cab is getting into the same ballpark, but for many its too much.

While a traditional guitar cab and speakers works from a feel perspective (for much less cash than the required FRFR system), you loose the ability to have the cab sims. Personally I dont have a problem with that. The variation I get is enough, and its just like having multiple heads top plug into my one cab.

Then comes an EVM12l loaded cab. This - while still a compromise - is a very good fit of traditional feel and with the ability to use cab sims (maybe not perfectly neutral but enough). Cost? Well for a 2x12 cab, the EVs and a Matrix amp, around £1000 in the UK. In the US, I dont know. The MAtrix is more, but the EVs will be less so ????

anyway, compare that with the £2000 for the only FRFR i found remotly good enough (there will be others, but more expensive still - which TBH frieghtens me ) and the EVs make perfect sense.

Wjhat DADA is trying to say - in his very own often sarcastic style (in a good way mostly) is that for MOST people who HAVENT got access to thousands of £/$/Euro for a "propper" (by Jays definition) FRR system, the EVs add something "mechanical and real" that FRFR systems in a sensible price range (and the most commonly touted here, such as FBTs, Verves, QSCs etc) dont have. It sounds and feels like it should, which can only be a good thing for those of us wanting a more traditional stage set-up.

Ill quite happily take one of Jays enclosures and trial it for a while - and give some "user" feedback Im sure Its top notch - but thats not going to happen. Until I become rich the Matrix and traditional cab will do. EVMs will be added in a few months Im sure.

Well put.

 

[Markom]

I agree that the limitation for most people is the FRFR amplification systems that they use, but an EVM12L is not remotely close to FRFR. Can you run cab sims through it and get tones that you subjectively like? I'm sure most could. Are those sounds really representative of the amp and cab rigs you're modeling? In almost all cases, no.

The bottom line is to buy what you can afford and makes sense for you as amplification. Whatever that is, make great music with it and learn to get the best from it. Don't try to convince yourself or others that it is something it isn't though. An EVM12L cab is not FRFR nor will it ever be. It was never intended to be. Just enjoy it for what it is and make great music with it.

FWIW, I don't get hung up on the quality of amplification I'm using in most cases. I've learned to adjust to a lot of different playing situations and make the most of it whether it's a good backline, crappy monitors, great monitors, in-ears, etc. I've had the oppurtunity to use some really great equipment that made me a believer in the upper echelon of FRFR gear, and I've had to suffer through lousy in-ear and bad monitor gigs too. I've learned to play well and have fun in any of those situations.

D

"I've learned to play well and have fun in any of those situations."

Be careful, dk_ace ... Someone might mistake you for a musician! I agree with BBN - Well put.

 

[Sixstring]

So... npdcoremetal how about those EVM 12L's ? sound like a pretty good speaker don't they :lol.

 

[shred-o-holic]

I'll throw my limited power amps experience into the mix. I'm using a Randall RT2/50 and love it. No fizz and very punchy and clear.........for your low tuning I also recommend what I have been using for years and use it with my Axe-FX an ISP Vector SL powered sub.......an absolute winner for down tuning......in the past I've tried the Rocktron Velocity 300, Randall RP 2/200 (very good for SS) and a Mesa 2:90.........the RT2/50 is my fave but it does weigh alot.....