One expensive guitar or several inexpensive ones?

[Dimi Guitar]

I judge a musical instrument on ergonomics, build quality and sound. you can add aesthetics but it doesn't affect quality.

All "ergonomics, quality and sound" can have aesthetic dimensions. These aren't always obvious, but are often part of the game imo.

But sure. I do not disagree with you that you can make empirical observations about guitars, amps, etc etc.

And some people will be more proficient at this than others, depending on experience, skill, whatever is relevant.

 

[Andy Eagle]

Also having the experience to recognise it is also a large part of the equation because as we have acknowledged this industry is not exactly known for a scientific approach to much unfortunately . Nobody shares the data so when Paul Smith starts talking tone wood and vintage lots of people think this is somehow subjective. Funny how all the people with experience of the gear he often talks about completely agree what he says is in no way controversial . I know this is not fair to assume that people who haven't played with this stuff extensively are wrong but they have no reference point for the best of the best. They are then stuck with only what they like out of their considerably limited experience .

 

[Andy Eagle]

All "ergonomics, quality and sound" can have aesthetic dimensions. These aren't always obvious, but are often part of the game imo.

But sure. I do not disagree with you that you can make empirical observations about guitars, amps, etc etc.

And some people will be more proficient at this than others, depending on experience, skill, whatever is relevant.

I agree but I think that by the time we have only the aesthetic element left we have long passed the objective quality tick and we would be as I said above picking the one we preferred but acknowledging that the other was as good.

 

[Dimi Guitar]

Can you not hear the difference between a hi fi and an mp3 pocket speaker? Can you not see obvious build quality, fit a finish? It only gets subjective when these things are matched and then you only have preference left. Quality of build and sound is not for the most part subjective and when you get up to the really high end stuff in a comparison both will be great then you preferring one doesn't make it better it just means you like it. The objective quality is already recognised.

I can see a difference between different finishes. I can also see the difference between Eart fretwork and my own.

But I'm not sure I'd take that to mean "it only gets subjective when these things are matched". Sure, there's empirical stuff to be recognized.

There's also aesthetic judgments.

If I prefer a Ford to a Ferrari, there's a very real sense in which it's better for me. But sure: I can recognize that the Ferrari has certain characteristics the Ford engine lacks, and vice versa most likely.

And I can also recognize that the Ferrari, assuming the car operates as it intended, can go faster.

But all that is true, at the same time, with aesthetic judgements being made, whatever these are.

More to the topic at hand: I think some people are more skeptical of the kind of expertise others proclaim, in the guitar world.

I've often had luthiers try and lecture me about things they weren't properly understanding themselves. "Trust me bro, i have experience", the usual go-to. Others have been way more cautious, depending on the issue, often the better ones, in part due to being cognisant of limitations at play.

I do agree with you that there's genuinely layers of expertise in guitar world. We don't absolutely need peer reviewed journals for this, let's say.

But there's also topics that are highly contested, and where I feel people who view themselves as "higher on the expertise echelon" may oversell their ability.

Paul Reed Smith does this, at times, for me, for example.

Ps: I don't mean this as a slight against you. I only mean that I can see how the question of expertise can be flimsy, in guitar world, depending on the topic at hand, even if I think some people definitely "know better" in many cases.

 

[Dimi Guitar]

Also having the experience to recognise it is also a large part of the equation because as we have acknowledged this industry is not exactly known for a scientific approach to much unfortunately . Nobody shares the data so when Paul Smith starts talking tone wood and vintage lots of people think this is somehow subjective. Funny how all the people with experience of the gear he often talks about completely agree what he says is in no way controversial . I know this is not fair to assume that people who haven't played with this stuff extensively are wrong but they have no reference point for the best of the best. They are then stuck with only what they like out of their considerably limited experience .

I agree that on average Paul Reed Smith is going to have more experience, greater exposure, and more skill when it goes to guitars than, say, me.

But I'd also be relatively careful not to overstate expertise.

Andy Sneap , for example, says he "cannot hear the difference" between Kemper and real amp, then shows us comparison with what appear to me as fairly obvious differences.

When I talked to him before, he laughed off Townsend switching to axe fx as "er no, I worked with Townsend, he Kempers". Am I to mistrust what Townsend himself has said, which Sneap was apparently unfamiliar with?

Or is Townsend wrong about what he hears, which was part of why he went back to axe fx for amp tones also? Andy Sneap is a producer, after all, one of the best ever for metal.

(Not that Townsend does not have a lot of expertise when it comes to tone..).

But I've also seen quite many cases where people will exagerate their ability, get a boner from doing so, and rely on market success to boost their ability.

Then when you look deeper into a given topic you often discover it's... A lot more nuanced, actually, and that there's quite a bit of disagreement between people with substantial experience.

 

[Andy Eagle]

I can see a difference between different finishes. I can also see the difference between Eart fretwork and my own.

But I'm not sure I'd take that to mean "it only gets subjective when these things are matched". Sure, there's empirical stuff to be recognized.

There's also aesthetic judgments.

If I prefer a Ford to a Ferrari, there's a very real sense in which it's better for me. But sure: I can recognize that the Ferrari has certain characteristics the Ford engine lacks, and vice versa most likely.

And I can also recognize that the Ferrari, assuming the car operates as it intended, can go faster.

But all that is true, at the same time, with aesthetic judgements being made, whatever these are.

More to the topic at hand: I think some people are more skeptical of the kind of expertise others proclaim, in the guitar world.

I've often had luthiers try and lecture me about things they weren't properly understanding themselves. "Trust me bro, i have experience", the usual go-to. Others have been way more cautious, depending on the issue, often the better ones, in part due to being cognisant of limitations at play.

I do agree with you that there's genuinely layers of expertise in guitar world. We don't absolutely need peer reviewed journals for this, let's say.

But there's also topics that are highly contested, and where I feel people who view themselves as "higher on the expertise echelon" may oversell their ability.

Paul Reed Smith does this, at times, for me, for example.

Paul knows what he is talking about, I have talked to him over the years. He does the experiments but yes in video he tends a little too much to the salesman for my liking.
John Suhr also is very good and you won't find a guy that knows his vintage better than Joe Bonamassa it terms of tone.
As a repair tech I have to diagnose issues all the time and it has given me the opportunity to play and work on pretty much everything and with some amazing people . I look after quite a lot of high end vintage and Rock star gear and do authentication for auctions. In the 30 + years Ive done this I really think I have seen almost everything going and played it . That is my standpoint and where I formed my views on this.

 

[Andy Eagle]

I agree that on average Paul Reed Smith is going to have more experience, greater exposure, and more skill when it goes to guitars than, say, me.

But I'd also be relatively careful not to overstate expertise.

Andy Sneap , for example, says he "cannot hear the difference" between Kemper and real amp, then shows us comparison with what appear to me as fairly obvious differences.

When I talked to him before, he laughed off Townsend switching to axe fx as "er no, I worked with Townsend, he Kempers". Am I to mistrust what Townsend himself has said, which Sneap was apparently unfamiliar with?

Or is Townsend wrong about what he hears, which was part of why he went back to axe fx for amp tones also? Andy Sneap is a producer, after all, one of the best ever for metal.

(Not that Townsend does not have a lot of expertise when it comes to tone..).

But I've also seen quite many cases where people will exagerate their ability, get a boner from doing so, and rely on market success to boost their ability.

Then when you look deeper into a given topic you often discover it's... A lot more nuanced, actually, and that there's quite a bit of disagreement between people with substantial experience.

IME it depends on whether they have an angle. I can get a message to Pete and ask him I did some stuff for him a month ago.

 

[Dimi Guitar]

Paul knows what he is talking about, I have talked to him over the years. He does the experiments but yes in video he tends a little too much to the salesman for my liking.
John Suhr also is very good and you won't find a guy that knows his vintage better than Joe Bonamassa it terms of tone.
As a repair tech I have to diagnose issues all the time and it has given me the opportunity to play and work on pretty much everything and with some amazing people . I look after quite a lot of high end vintage and Rock star gear and do authentication for auctions. In the 30 + years Ive done this I really think I have seen almost everything going and played it . That is my standpoint and where I formed my views on this.

I agree with you that these people (and I'm sure you too) have genuine expertise when it comes to guitars and amps. But at the same time, I tend to be careful about at least some of the claims people make, even very experienced ones.

Back when I was still a philosophy student in uni, I never viewed professors as gods there just to fill my brain with stuff.

In guitar world (and I've worked in this area too, in product design for example) I've often seen a lot of ultimately empty appeals to expertise, at least in terms of what was stated. Some of it about pickup design, for example.

Granted, it takes a expertise itself to be able to recognize expertise when it comes to a specific issue, for sure, and this is often complicated enough on its own. Sometimes people do have enough understanding of a given issue though for this.

 

[Andy Eagle]

I agree with you that these people (and I'm sure you too) have genuine expertise when it comes to guitars and amps. But at the same time, I tend to be careful about at least some of the claims people make, even very experienced ones.

Back when I was still a philosophy student in uni, I never viewed professors as gods there just to fill my brain with stuff.

In guitar world (and I've worked in this area too, in product design for example) I've often seen a lot of ultimately empty appeals to expertise, at least in terms of what was stated. Some of it about pickup design, for example.

Granted, it takes a expertise itself to be able to recognize expertise when it comes to a specific issue, for sure, and this is often complicated enough on its own. Sometimes people do have enough understanding of a given issue though for this.

I don't think we disagree, everyone just has to deal with a world of Trolls, luddites idiots and YouTube .

 

[Dimi Guitar]

I don't think we disagree, everyone just has to deal with a world of Trolls, luddites idiots and YouTube .

Likely mostly agree. My posts are largely to reach some clarity, for my own understanding, of what you think. Which isn't to say you're unclear, but I often approach discussion this way.

Anyway, not to derail the thread

 

[BBN]

Yes some won't like it but they will recognise it as great.

Eh....maybe.
As tone is completely subjective, and build quality can vary. This is not a certainty.

I owned a Tom Anderson once I thought was very mediocre. I also once owned a very expensive PRS that was AWFUL.
I played a Schecter LP style that was $350 used and it was absolutely KILLER.

Brand and price does not always reflect how good a guitar is (for you). Which is why no matter what 3 pages of back and forth on subjective vs. objective....guitars are always something I need to play before I judge them.

 

[Andy Eagle]

Eh....maybe.
As tone is completely subjective, and build quality can vary. This is not a certainty.

I owned a Tom Anderson once I thought was very mediocre. I also once owned a very expensive PRS that was AWFUL.
I played a Schecter LP style that was $350 used and it was absolutely KILLER.

Brand and price does not always reflect how good a guitar is (for you). Which is why no matter what 3 pages of back and forth on subjective vs. objective....guitars are always something I need to play before I judge them.

What exactly was wrong with them?

 

[Jeronimo]

I would prefer having One great guitar instead of multiple Mediocre instruments.
As mentioned multiple times before: price does not directly translate to quality.

At the moment I only own 2 electric guitars: a ~’93 Strat Plus Deluxe modified with Dually Lace in the bridge and a ~89 Ibanez JEM 77 FP.
Both are great but the Strat gats most of the playing time. If I could only keep 1 it would be the Strat, letting go of the JEM would hurt for sentimental reasons (bought it a long ago from my guitar teacher who recently passed away)

Both guitars were quite expensive new but I bought them used for a great price long time ago.

 

[marsonic]

I judge a musical instrument on ergonomics, build quality and sound. you can add aesthetics but it doesn't affect quality.

I generally disagree. Even if you're talking about workmanship, that's something you can judge objectively. But, mostly, I'm talking about how much it inspires you. That being said, an objectively more expertly done finish does not necessarily make the guitar better. I can't really imagine a 70s punk band playing immaculate guitars, for example.

as we have acknowledged this industry is not exactly known for a scientific approach to much unfortunately

It's shocking when you dig into it. There are a lot of people who ignore objective, verifiable data on measurable differences while claiming that they can hear things that can't be measured. It's not at all limited to guitars and amps. There are very talented mastering engineers who say those kinds of things about different converters or fancy cables.

A person's ability to do a job seems not to be determined by understanding any piece of the science or math behind it...which is kind of a foreign concept to me.

Yes I've seen this from people who have never played through a real one or ever really listened....To really appreciate the difference you need one in front of you and an amazing guitar plugged straight in.

I disagree. Strongly. There are what, 300 Dumbles out there? I know a lot of them have changed hands and some of the owners let people play them whenever the opportunity comes up.

Pretend for a minute that a thousand people have played every single Dumble. In 2020, Fender Play, just Fender Play, saw twice that many new users in a 3-month period. Statistically, the number of guitarists who have played a Dumble is rounding error.

If needing to play them was required to appreciate them, then the reputation would be complete BS.

FWIW, I have heard a couple in person. But...they were a part of Joe Bonamassa's big rig. So, they had effects in front of them, I never knew objectively when they were playing, they were behind shields, and they were mic'd through the PA. Does that mean I've never heard one? Does that mean I have no reason to think they're good?

In this circumstance you would not find anyone to deny the sheer quality of tone.

So, for those few thousand people...sure. But...Bonamassa currently owns and tours with 3 of them, and he said in an interview that when he got the first two he wanted his money back because they sounded awful...they needed a speaker change.

Anyway, not to derail the thread

This thread was made to be derailed as far as I'm concerned.

Brand and price does not always reflect how good a guitar is (for you). Which is why no matter what 3 pages of back and forth on subjective vs. objective....guitars are always something I need to play before I judge them.

Agreed.

My personal "hot take" is that I've never played a PRS SE that I thought was definitely worth the asking price, except for the one Parlor Acoustic I played. No objective quality (frets, nut, finish, etc.) stood out among the herd of "nice" imports. I know those aren't expensive, but "everyone" says they punch above their weight. They're no better or worse than basically any of their competitors IME. And I don't think I've ever really read that on the internet. People who don't like them say they're the cheap version of lawyer guitars (which doesn't mean anything), and people who do like them think they're flawless. I wouldn't have come to that conclusion if I hadn't played about 15 or 20 of them.

 

[Sixstring]

If I had the money I suppose I would have a closet full of both expensive and inexpensive guitars. In reality it boils down to what you can afford and your priorities. What expensive and inexpensive is is up to the individual to decide but I think the economy and market are the price setters.

Over the years I have watched both PRS and Suhr (new prices) advance from the 2k range to 3k and beyond. Fore me that's a bit out of my range!

For me I top out at 2k and I'm pretty much done looking. As far as a bottom this is somewhat brand dependant so that could very I will admit I would be looking for I would consider a quality made guitar with parts that are not what you are going to find on a budget guitar whatever that brand might happen to be. I think that puts me in the $800-1200 range.

Based on that, right now I think I have 3 expensive guitars. If I had to sell all three they would be in that 2k range.

 

[BBN]

What exactly was wrong with them?

Anderson - action was way too high. Even after my (honestly, amazing) luthier set it up. Something wasn't right with the way the next was set. This was a newer 2 bolt version. It seemed that the only way to remedy would have been to shim the neck, which is really not easy to do on a 2 bolt Anderson and would certainly kill the resale value. So, I sold it.

PRS - had obnoxiously large frets that had an awful dressing on them (sharp ends). It felt like your fingers were getting chewed up when you played it. Tone was also VERY thin and brash. I can't remember the model (maybe I can find a pic) but it was one where they are a slightly smaller humbucker. So to replace the electronics, I would have had to go to PRS for a new set. I traded the guitar for something else. The new owner had the frets filed down (because he also agreed they were just too-jumbo). So, he spent the coin to have them filed/reduced....he didn't like the tone either, so he ended up selling it too. This PRS had a KILLER top on it, so it was a shame to sell.

As a contrast, my friend at that same time had a black PRS single cut....it cost $1k less than the one I just got rid of.....and it played/sounded amazing.

And Anderson's are my favorite guitars out there (well, maybe second to my vintage LPs), and I was shocked to find a dud.

Guitars are not consistent in my experience. I've got 40+ 'keepers' at the moment, many are vintage Gibson. Every one of my LPs plays a little different.

 

[Budda]

Should post those in the les paul thread @BBN

 

[WesB]

You can never have too many guitars or pieces of equipment ;-). I started out with one guitar and amp, hated it. Now I have 7 guitars, two amps, dozens of pedals , and three pieces of Fractal. Love em all. But I'm still just one guitar and an Axe FxIII Turbo away from being a great player!

 

[Sixstring]

I've got 40+ 'keepers' at the moment, many are vintage Gibson. Every one of my LPs plays a little different.

Man you have had some great luck with LP guitars! Quite a few years ago I wanted a LP so bad I could taste it. I played no less than 5 that were in the store at the time and none of them felt or played right for me.

I ran the gamut from $1,800 to 6k they were all just horrible. Then the Sales guy put a PRS singlecut 10 top in my hands and I ran out the door with it!

 

[skolacki]

Man you have had some great luck with LP guitars! Quite a few years ago I wanted a LP so bad I could taste it. I played no less than 5 that were in the store at the time and none of them felt or played right for me.

I ran the gamut from $1,800 to 6k they were all just horrible. Then the Sales guy put a PRS singlecut 10 top in my hands and I ran out the door with it!

Same thing for me. Searched LPs at many stores from San Diego to LA and wound up with a PRS singlecut trem. Still my number 1.