On paying for users' presets

[mortega76]

Where's Armin with his preset selling website when you need it?

 

[zenaxe]

It's a personal decision but for my own standards, there are some things I just WON'T pay for under any circumstance as a matter of principle.

Like sex... and gear presets.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

Surely we can have an open mind when discussing this. As you might now I'm also one of those who thinks this kind of knowledge is free. Still people pay for books that tell you how to play golf when you should be hitting balls. Still people pay for books in general. I mean... how can someone "own" words. They didn't come up with the words. Can someone own words in different order? What about owning a set of ones and zeroes in different order? The Axe-Fx is a long set of ones and zeroes. Yes... these things produce money and people pay for them.

BUT:
-there's no reason to get so emotional negatively since no one is forcing you to buy these. unless you want these patches... and you want them for free. if you get angry at this I'm pretty sure you'd be willing to pay a few bucks to make the anger go away right?

- if the price was right (low enough), I'm sure many people would buy patches. F.ex. Mark Day's YouTube clips have sold many Axe-Fx's and that's $2000 worth each. I think those people would gladly pay a few bucks to get his exact settings even though their other gear wouldn't give the exact same tone. They'd be getting exactly what they saw on YouTube before purchasing. And ofcourse I'm so awesome with the Axe-Fx that people would pay even more for my work. (sarcasm)

- these patches could be categorized in many ways. some could be tweaked to sound like amps that the Axe-Fx doesn't have to offer yet. This would surely be a successful business. Like the Orange and Diezel. You can tweak the advanced settings to get them closer to other amps by Orange and Diezel. These could be compared to the real amps by a group of people that now how to tweak the Axe-Fx well.

So my opinion is that if there is a way to guarantee the quality of these presets, people would gladly pay. Like f.ex. the Periphery album tone patch would surely be worth money for djent guys. A YouTube preview on every preset would be enough so people can hear what the preset is about etc.

There are problems however. If you start editing these money-worth presets and share them as your own is it illegal? And what happens when there's a firmware update and all the money-worth patches sound like fart?

 

[mark_melling]

This is really a pointless thread and no good can come of it..all it does it put people into two categories for and against.

People start wording there opinion strongly, it get heated, friction and bad blood develop, that spills into other threads.

 

[shasha]

If someone started selling patches I wouldn't buy them. I don't think that there is enough of a market to quit your day job over either. I'm sure that there is a small market, but at the end of the day I don't even think that it's an issue that would arise at any point.

Now my time is worth money and I get paid pretty well in my day time job. I'm not rich, but I'm not starving (could lose a few lbs though) and while things like IR's have become a hot item for sales there is the manufacturing of them that justifies that. There is specialized gear and crap that is required to make a good IR. An entire library of IR's is something unique in it's own right even though it is just a copy of existing speakers, cabinets and mics. So I can appreciate someone being expected to be paid for their work even if it's based almost exclusively on time invested.

Presets on the other hand are just configurations and settings. While they are a lot of work sometimes I'd just have a real hard time shelling out any cash for one. If someone else wants to that's fine, but it does kind of fly in the face of the spirit of the whole patch sharing philosophy; especially when you consider the fact that just about everyone that would be that 'skilled' is basing all of their creative and intellect from what others have shared be it in a patch or just knowledge on this forum. So it'd be like taking someone else's generosity, tweaking it and selling it as your own in a way.

I don't really care either way, but I could see where a few people would be put off by it.

 

[Deltones]

People start wording there opinion strongly, it get heated, friction and bad blood develop, that spills into other threads.

Actually, I agree with you. Was not my intention to create a firestorm, but it's not the first time my writing style gets me into trouble. So yep, guess we should all drop the subject.

 

[mark_melling]

Actually, I agree with you. Was not my intention to create a firestorm, but it's not the first time my writing style gets me into trouble. So yep, guess we should all drop the subject.

I understand your point of view and respect it..but its human nature to express ourselves strongly when we feel deeply about something, and with a subject that there is no right or wrong, only opinion..things always degenerate, in all area of life..humans we're a bigoted bunch!!

 

[animal]

- if the price was right (low enough), I'm sure many people would buy patches. F.ex. Mark Day's YouTube clips have sold many Axe-Fx's and that's $2000 worth each. I think those people would gladly pay a few bucks to get his exact settings even though their other gear wouldn't give the exact same tone. They'd be getting exactly what they saw on YouTube before purchasing. And ofcourse I'm so awesome with the Axe-Fx that people would pay even more for my work. (sarcasm)

that guy gets amazing tones but its like someone said ...one patch on someones gear might not work on another
and I've never got his patches to sound like the clips!!
says alot more about me as a player thou

So my opinion is that if there is a way to guarantee the quality of these presets, people would gladly pay. Like f.ex. the Periphery album tone patch would surely be worth money for djent guys.

I'm glad I'm not one of them!!!!!!



I'm not opposed to paying for patches if they are the real deal

Its not a 'bad' thing if you asked someone with alot of skill at tweaking to make something up as a service IMO

I can see it being a little bit of a slippery slope

I even did a thread as a suggestion maybe there could be a preset package (sunk like a lead balloon) ....they do things like this with superior drummer presets etc from professionals

 

[luke]

Would you be willing to pay for firmware updates? Or do you feel you are entitled to them for free as long as the unit is in production? Funny how everyone feels there time is valuable but others should give their efforts away. Let the market decide.

 

[Dinkledorf]

While I have nothing against anybody selling presets, I also don't see myself buying any.

However, a business model may exist for this if the seller did custom order presets. Send the guy a clip of your target tone along with a dry clip of yourself playing your gear for reamping purposes and it could work. Whether or not there is a market for this, not sure.

 

[shasha]

Would you be willing to pay for firmware updates? Or do you feel you are entitled to them for free as long as the unit is in production? Funny how everyone feels there time is valuable but others should give their efforts away. Let the market decide.

Well with the firmware there's a level of expectation based upon the manufacturer's policy. If FA decided to stop providing free firmware updates and started charging how would you feel? There's a reasonable reaction to feel slighted because the free firmware updates have been a major selling point and the standard to this point. But if you go into it knowing full well that any update is going to cost money than you can't be upset when they try to charge you. I hope that it makes sense; I'm tired.

I personally don't see it as any kind of issue; like you said the market will decide. If someone can make money (or even better yet 'wants' to) than go for it. But they need to keep in mind that there is a big difference between helping out someone on a forum to get a tone and actually getting paid to deliver that tone. Once again, expectations come into play. If I'm forking over some dough it better not be good; it better be exactly what I'm looking for.

And custom one-off tones isn't something that I would see as worthwhile since there's a lot of time vs. units sold. One patch that takes 4 hours to dial in to perfection may get you one sale. And how much could one actually expect to be paid for one patch? I can't see it working out to be much more than minimum wage.

But if you like tweaking crap and are looking for projects and you can get a few bucks in the meantime and as long as it doesn't detract from the name of the product it may actually be kind of cool.

 

[vAmp]

It's pretty easy to see why it should be possible IMO...

There are guys out there who are clearly levels above most of us. Undoubtedly they'll have presets they will never share, because they have put much work into it and wanna use unique sounds for important projects. I might do the same.

Then they probably have loads more presets that are pretty interesting, of which they might be pursuaded to share them, BUT... they need some work. Don't underestimate the whole process of gathering, finetuning/adding extra blocks so most people will get use out of it (yes, IMO that *is* possible for a lot of clean sounds and Special-FX), making a few sound demos, a pdf with more info, a webpage maybe, keeping them up-to-date, etc ...)
For sure these guys deserve compensation for that work and appreciation for their willingness to even sell them in the first place.
The other option is... that you will *never* have them! Is that better?
Just because a handful others are offering stuff for free, not everybody is obliged to do the same.
It would actually be more logical if they too sold their stuff for all their efforts and time spent on them *and* in the forum. Besides, it's not Don's initiative, but others wanting him to do it.

I'm not swimming in money, so I appreciate both standpoints and *love* the guys for sharing, but to me it's just not that black and white.

Let's generalize for a second that wizards like Matman, javajunkie and a few more have each shared like 15 awesome presets. Well, Don might have shared almost as many and could probably make some of these sounds for himself in the first place. Does he therefore by definition have to offer the probably dozens and dozens more that he has and the work associated with it for free? Would you go ahead and do possibly weeks work on them just to offer them free? (soms might, some not) Would you do it if an outside source offered you money for that work? (some will, why not?)

I realize that our FX wizards might be offering more awesome stuff themselves, but if they keep linking it to a new editor, that could take another 6 months...

Another thing I see with Don is that he seems to be sharing great stuff and hardly gets response. Maybe he's a typical case where people will start realizing the value when there's a considerable cost associated with it...?! I can easily imagine that if he made a commercial package out of it, he would have gotten more reaction than he does now. I'm not even saying his work is "da bomb", I'm not so into Special-FX and still have to check out some of it, but a lot would still be worthy of buying. Especially in this state of the Axe-FX where we really don't have *that* much preset wizards (or they are not sharing). Actually, most of his presets are not the br00tzalz and will sound good for more ppl than most other.

I would also love to be able to buy a package with e.g. the whole G-Force in it (even if I don't need it ). Almost none of its presets, nor the ones in the Axe (esp. cleans and special-FX) ever sounded that bad to me and when they do, there might still be a wealth of tips in them.
Maybe it's because I use EMGs a lot that I get less shitty sounds? (I agree with the disadvantages also)

My other opinions are already in the other thread.

The 'tape drive' after the amp block and/or after the cab block was one of my ideas that I shared. For free.

Are you 100% sure? In banks B & C alone, I'm seeing B111, C008, C025, C059. I believe you claim to hardly ever have played a preset? In that case, you still have a way out maybe

 

[littlebigfis]

I'm curious, what price have people paid for patches? My guess is $5-$15. Am I off?

Anyway, people will do what they are going to do no matter what we say here. I must admit, even though there are times that I'd love to nail a tone and just can't figure it out and would love to outsource a patch, I just couldn't do it. I think its an insult to everyone in this community that has spent loads of their time generously trying to teach us how to hunt rather than just killing the beast for us.

Besides, a properly framed question that shows some effort and insight will always get a response and help you down the trail....

 

[LMO]

I strongly second what Scott has posted. This is a very supportive community that helps brings newbies up to speed and adds to the overall expertise in using the AxeFx effectively. I don't really use any presets I've downloaded here, but I have learned things by seeing how others design presets. Even more valuable to me are when experienced users like Scott take the time to explain in detail aspects of how they approach creating a sound. I could care less whether anyone wants to market presets, but that's not what this forum is all about. If I'm ever able to develop any really unique and cool presets it will be based on the foundation that I've gotten here, and if anyone could benefit from what I've learned I'd be happy to share.

 

[vAmp]

I'm curious, what price have people paid for patches? My guess is $5-$15. Am I off?

Has that happened yet? Maybe the thread with Tone_Freak and Don, at least in the end. If that was me, I had paid Don upfront for trying alone! It would be scandalous to receive this small amount for so much work and expertise, even if Tone_Freak had some points that he didn't nail it 100%.

I must admit, even though there are times that I'd love to nail a tone and just can't figure it out and would love to outsource a patch, I just couldn't do it.

That day might come, however. I've been wanting a really good 80ies Pat Metheny patch for *all my life*, which is a long time (just for fun and old time's sake). I have done *a lot* of research into it, but when I am now starting to apply the principles with the Axe, it just is not that easy. A Tri-Chorus patch comes closer. So yes, there will be a day *this year* I am sick and tired of it and might offer $$$ , just for trying!!

I think its an insult to everyone in this community that has spent loads of their time

I don't think you can generalize about that. It may well be possible that one of the other wizards would gladly buy e.g. Don's package, just because they know the work involved and may have dreamt of being able to sell their own maybe. Or let's say sometime in the future a big recording artist sells his proven value presets, would by definition none of them like to pay for them?

Some people spend a lot of time on their patches because they don't know how to go about it in the first place (including me). Maybe some of them are overestimating the value of their patches? Few peoples stuff is above that, and those few we have to value.

When the new Axe-Change comes out, I hope there will be a rating system per person. If not, we might get a Pod like system where any newbie that has changed 2 parameters and likes the sound will want to share it.

Enzo Sutera comes to mind as well. It took some convincing to make him share his Tri-Chorus He might have been a rich man if he sold it. With the research and effort that went into it, he should have and nobody would have regretted it. Great people will still share on the side, but some things have more value than others.
I don't think he's been sharing other patches? After all he's a busy studio artist who may depend on his own sounds. But let's say you got the chance to buy his patches after all, should nobody be interested out of some principle? These sounds are on many records and are of "The Great Enzo" Some things have "added value", but you don't have to by them!

I could make the same long posts for the other side, but the others are already doing that. I'm just saying to not look at it so black & white or be of the "everything has to be free! :evil" mentality.

 

[vAmp]

I strongly second what Scott has posted. This is a very supportive community that helps brings newbies up to speed

None of that has to change. Some of these people will even realize the value between a 50+ quality and supported preset pack and some of their tips/presets.

I feel I should restate that it is key that this is not Don's idea. It's others pleading him to "give away" some more of his expertise and time for a logical and well-deserved compensation. Just like there may be people who persuade you to do something only if they paid for your efforts. Simple as that. What's more, Don seems genuinely enthousiastic and able and will not just put together some filler (sure, every sound you cannot use will be filler to you).

It's kind of like in the hardware world. Let's say a few people want a SynthAxe again. You know stuff can be made that will never be made again because it turned out there will be too little takers for it to be commercially viable. In that case, you have hopes of coming together and offer these people enough compensation for their efforts so that it may be possible after all, and all of 'em will have gained by it.

The question then only becomes if Don's or someone else's presets are really on a level beyond most others. But that, you can decide for yourself from demos and recordings of others. Maybe it's like in the synth samples world or even the IR businesses now. Some stuff is way better than other stuff, but you are free to decide if you value it more than general homemade stuff shared on a board (yes, those have gems too). We are probably talking about a whole quality collection here from someone with proven expertise, which to me is potentially more valuable than downloading 10 presets a day until finally something sounds right.
It would be different if we had a few dozen wizards sharing their stuff for free.

Anyway, Don better take a poll if he has not given up yet and only read the positive results

 

[vAmp]

I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS SUBJECT IS EVEN BEING RAISED!!! PAY FOR PRESETS??? SOMEONE IS SURELY ON THE MARY JANE!! MADNESS....

So you are 100% sure that if you had a G-Force you would never have bought the Artist Card...?
Almost every 2nd hand G-Force sold had such a card with it, so seemingly not everyone is like you

 

[animal]

I'm curious, what price have people paid for patches? My guess is $5-$15. Am I off?

Anyway, people will do what they are going to do no matter what we say here. I must admit, even though there are times that I'd love to nail a tone and just can't figure it out and would love to outsource a patch, I just couldn't do it. I think its an insult to everyone in this community that has spent loads of their time generously trying to teach us how to hunt rather than just killing the beast for us.

Besides, a properly framed question that shows some effort and insight will always get a response and help you down the trail....

I think its a 'time is money' issue on both parts....I wouldn't mind spending $$$ if someone can do a better job than I could ever hope to do...saves me time and the person deserves compensation


and people pay for IR's......theres alot more work that can go in a patch than a single IR


I know I'd part with money for Uoki-Toki or Simeons patches
but thats me!!

 

[Roland]

As a principle, I believe in the value of economic power to drive a market. That's what brings innovation and development, along with cash for some contributors.

The question here is whether the market is for patches, with all the experience and knowledge that goes into them, or for the Axe-FX as a platform. I contend that the platform is the important thing for each of us. The exchange of knowledge by this community has driven the development of the platform, and our ability to extract value from it. It has inspired potential customers, and drive product sales, which in turn sustain the platform as a viable, supportable product. If we were to charge for that knowledge then we would constrain the market, to the benefit of Boss, Line 6 et al, and the detriment of the Axe. [/rant]

 

[octatonic]

If people want to sell presets then let them.
If people want to buy them then great, I guess.

I'd never buy them and I think you'd have to be a bit of a numpty to think you can make money from it unless you were a big name guitarist (Vai, Petrucci etc).
If you look at David Torn's patch pack for the Eleven Rack here: http://community.avid.com/blogs/avi...ven-rack-patches-david-torn-splattercell.aspx you can see they are a free download.
I don't know if he was paid for them or if he received some kit in return but he is a big name (relatively speaking) and Avid didn't charge for them.
I am sure if they though they could then they would have.

If you were a master patch creator with a lower industry profile then you might have more success speaking to Fractal or G66 and see about becoming their patch guy.