Ok wish me luck last chance for my CLR today with the full band

kmanick said:
Feeling disconnected the entire time I was playing is much more of an issue to me.
People have been mic'ing cabs for decades. Suddenly that doesn't work anymore because you went out and invested
into a modeling system? ya...........ok if that makes you feel better about your gear acquisitions then good for you.

I've lost track of how many people have come by by place and said "what you're playing through a f*cking monitor now?
you're kidding right? that sounds like ............well a f*cking monitor"
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addressing the first part....just because something has been done a certain way for period of time doesn't mean that its the best way to do it, just that it's the norm. Nothing like the Axe has ever existed before Cliff came along, so saying "that's the way they did it 77, so it must be the be all end all best way to capture guitar tones" is silly...

as for the second part, you might need better friends, lol.
 
kmanick said:
Feeling disconnected the entire time I was playing is much more of an issue to me.
I don't know about you personally but if I don't 'connect" with a piece of gear whether it's an amp
or a guitar , I don't want it. I don't have to convince myself "that's the way to do it" or "get used to it".
I'm sorry , "no thanks".
People have been mic'ing cabs for decades. Suddenly that doesn't work anymore because you went out and invested
into a modeling system? ya...........ok if that makes you feel better about your gear acquisitions then good for you.
I've lost track of how many people have come by by place and said "what you're playing through a f*cking monitor now?
you're kidding right? that sounds like ............well a f*cking monitor"
I'm having this same discussion on another forum fight now, where lots of people gig with the Axe FX and real amps.
Going back and forth from there to here is like going back and forth between Fox news and MSNBC
after an Obama state of the union address.
Opinions couldn't differ more.
Mods feel free to close this thread, I really don't have anything more to add here.
Click to expand...

FWIW
I've had 2 CLRs for over a year now and no matter how hard I try to tweak things it's always much more satisfying to play through my real cabs.
I'm like 61 though and have been playing professionally for over 40 years so I'm used to hearing things one way and it's probably going to be too hard for me to change.

But I can get my CLRs rig sounding every bit as good as it sounds when I'm in a studio listening to my mic'd cabs through studio monitors.
But the thing is *that's* never really been my tone.
It's always been a vague approximation of my tone squeezed down into a stereo mix played back usually on little near field studio monitors.
That's always been a compromise as far as I'm concerned.
IMO What works for a stereo mix doesn't really work as well for live playing on the stage.

But I'm keeping my CLRs for now because if I ever do a gig where I actually have to play through FRFR speakers, and some of the theatre gigs I do can be like that, they're still the best FRFR monitor out there that's in the $1k range.
If I was hurting for bread I'd unload them.
But I'm not.
Good luck with whatever you wind up using.
 
correct but it also doesn't mean "it doesn't work anymore", and my friends have been gigging for years , they don't need anyone to "show them how to do it"


any way....................sigh, moving on ("these discussions remind of the days when the Line 6 owners swore the Vetta was the best thing since
sliced bread, tube amps are dead yadayadadya, kind of a Dejav vu ) ..........different strokes.
I got my buddy's Carvin TS100 hooked up, haven't had a chance to crank it yet but at moderate volume it's sounding pretty good.
only drawback is that it's just about as heavy as my JVM head and it doesn't seem all that loud , I even have
it bridged...........so I don't really gain a lot by using it and the Axe VS just using my JVM
going to have to crank it up tomorrow and A/B it against my JVM (since I have multiple 2X12's I can do that in pretty much real time) :)
 
nick1527 said:
I think theres a major point being missed in this thread and that sounding good to yourself on stage is 10000000000x more important that sounding good FOH. The one thing that is constant in all shows is that 99.9% of people there have no preference about your guitar tone. They are there to hear 'the band' and not only will they probably not care about how lush your tone is, you could probably make major mistakes in every song and zero fucks would be given by the audience unless you happen to be playing in a VERY popular band with a rabid fan base.

Being happy with your own sound is far more important as it will make it far easier for you to get into it and deliver a good performance to the audience.

Besides if your tone sucks you can always blame the sound guy and everyone will believe you! :D
Click to expand...

I totally agree. I play because I love to play, and I want to hear the sound that makes me want to play, whether it be via FRFR or whatever. Using a power amp and guitar cab that sounds great to you doesn't mean it's going to sound bad to everyone else, that doesn't even make sense. If that were true, guess I shouldn't have enjoyed the majority of concerts I've been to where the guitarists were using real amps and mic'd guitar cabs.
 
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jlynnb1 said:
addressing the first part....just because something has been done a certain way for period of time doesn't mean that its the best way to do it, just that it's the norm. Nothing like the Axe has ever existed before Cliff came along, so saying "that's the way they did it 77, so it must be the be all end all best way to capture guitar tones" is silly...

as for the second part, you might need better friends, lol.
Click to expand...

The "best way" to do it is the way you prefer and that works for you, it really has nothing to do with whether it's new or old technology.
 
I think a whole lot of people here get confused on the feel vs sound front.

I'm just lucky I never got used to the 'feel' of standing in front of a cranked 4x12. I personally don't need that 'loud amp and 4 speakers pushing tons of air' feel for my me>universe>music feedback loop.

I can enjoy playing FRFR and groove off of those studio quality sounds coming back out of the monitor at me. For me the versatility and box full of different sounds is the sexy gravy that gets me rolling. If you need a bunch of air moving, or alternatively like to wear headphones live a'la Eric Johnson to feel plugged in, who gives a damn. Just groove baby. If the groove is in the pocket and the musicians are tight, it can sound like shit and you're still gonna shake your ass. Or head, depending on style of music. :D
 
The FRFR thing is really a strange thing to me. As I've mentioned before, I haven't played thru a ton of cabs, etc. but it is hard to pin down what is missing when I hear sounds thru a setup.

For years I played thru LINE 6, Johnson Amplification, etc. amps that were emulations of amps. Why is it that these sounded great and some of these FRFR setups are something that folks struggle with?

I can't put my finger on what I don't like when I heard some FRFR setups but it seems like a lack of depth and an abundance of mids. I am not an expert on sound equipment but I have played guitar a long time and that is the only way I can explain it. It is like the difference of watching black and white TV and color TV. Something is just missing. With that said, when I sit in front of my computer and listen to the AxeFX-II, it sounds phenomenal.
 
romanianreaper said:
The FRFR thing is really a strange thing to me. As I've mentioned before, I haven't played thru a ton of cabs, etc. but it is hard to pin down what is missing when I hear sounds thru a setup.

For years I played thru LINE 6, Johnson Amplification, etc. amps that were emulations of amps. Why is it that these sounded great and some of these FRFR setups are something that folks struggle with?

I can't put my finger on what I don't like when I heard some FRFR setups but it seems like a lack of depth and an abundance of mids. I am not an expert on sound equipment but I have played guitar a long time and that is the only way I can explain it. It is like the difference of watching black and white TV and color TV. Something is just missing. With that said, when I sit in front of my computer and listen to the AxeFX-II, it sounds phenomenal.
Click to expand...

I think there's something way different about the way a guitar cab couples with the floor and walls in a room compared with the way an FRFR speaker couples with the room.
And I also think it's quite prominent in the way the mids sound with guitar cabs having more mids and more warm sounding mids.
And I also think that it's a psycho-ascoustically different experience listening to near-field studio monitors compared to listening to that same signal through FRFR monitors designed for far-field listening.
I also think that if I had to, for some reason, I could probably easily get used to playing FRFR.
But I don't really have to, at this point, and feel much more at home with guitar cabs.
 
I play mostly with FRFR these days for convenience.

A power amp -> guitar cab rig does sound just like the amp in the room. I'm used to that sound too but I'm not so tone conscious that it bothers me to play with FRFR.

The Fractal is so versatile it excels at all the different configurations, FRFR, guitar cab, in ears, or combinations of the above. Choose whatever floats your boat, no harm to foul.

With a real guitar cab, lots of things are going on. You aren't dealing with IR's. You are listening off axis. 4x12 cabs usually have some issues like rumble or low mid push that you have come to know and love :) and they look bad ass.
 
kmanick said:
you're not getting my entire dilemma with this whole FRFR issue.
Click to expand...

What everyone is telling you that you refuse to acknowledge is that while you are correct, you are getting a "picture" of an amp when you play through FRFR, that is also what you are getting when you mic your amp. And if you compare THOSE two, you will discover that the AXE is indistinguishable from most of the amps it models. This is why folks who have a lot of experience playing live on stage with stage monitors seem to get the hang of FRFR more easily.

There is no "wrong" way--Cliff prefers playing out of guitar cabs and Opal monitors, lots of guys here prefer the CLR, some power amps and cabs...lots of great advice to be had, just try and be open to different. God knows I had issues with the box for a few months as well but it truly is amazing.
 
but I do get it . I know what the axe does, but if I feel completely disconnected from my rig, it can be blasting out the purest
most delicious tone known to man out to the audience, but what they'll hear is me struggling to "feel" my rig.
My playing sucked through an FRFR monitor, and if you go back and read through threads I've posted in over the years here
the feel I get through a SS state driven FRFR monitor has been an issue with me since day one. I had the same issues using the Matrix into a real cab,
I had the same issues with the RCF Wedge I had too.
All players are different. my other guitarist used to gig nationally with the Aerosmith Tribute band "Draw the Line"
he couldn't stand playing with In ear monitors because he too felt disconnected from his playing.
Maybe I'll revisit this whole FRFR thing again down the road once we've got a few gigs under our belts.....maybe not, but right now
I know it's just not working for me and if I already have a 'real rig" that is working why get myself all stressed out trying to get a digital solution to work
for me when I'm not in the position of 'having to make it work for me".
It's not my only rig, luckily I have options available to me that do work so I can move on and just focus on learning the tunes I need to learn :)
for those of you who have gotten this whole digital SS thing to work for you....well I applaud you, I may come around to it at some point , but that point
is just not here for me yet.
 
kmanick said:
I had the same issues using the Matrix into a real cab,
Click to expand...

Hmm.
If that's the case then either you're not dialing in your tones very well or the Axe itself might just not be for you.
But it's probably the former rather than the latter because the Axe is known to sound as good as any real amp ever sounded when used in this configuration.

Unlike many folks here, I'm not all gung-ho about the Matrix power amps either.
[I own a GT1000 1U btw and just sent back a GT800.]
But they do do a serviceable job of translating the signal the Axe puts out and amplifying it in a musical way that sounds musical through a guitar cab.
They GT1000 isn't real pleasing for powering passive FRFR cabinets in my experience, but many folks here will disagree with that.

But if you get a chance to compare the way a Matrix power amp sounds like driving guitar cabs vs a hi-end power amp, like a Bryston, driving guitar cabs you'll readily hear the flaws in the Matrix's sound.

Contrary to what most folks here seem to believe, my feeling is that even the ART SLA power amps come closer to an uncolored tone than the Matrix amps.
But they pale next to a Bryston too.

As I recall, the QSC PLX Series power amps sounded pretty good.
They're light weight and powerful.
My issues with them were that they were 2U and I wanted 1U and the fans were a bit noisy for my purposes.

I suspect that the Carvin ss amps would sound real good with the Axe although I have no direct experience with them yet.

There isn't a tube driven power amp on the market that I am aware of of that will not color the Axe's signal.
Some people here seem to like coloring the Axe's tone in that way though.
IMO That's fine as long as you know that that's what's going on.

That Carvin tube power amp you're checking out is only 50 watts a side in stereo.
If you use one side only for a mono gig you'll probably find yourself driving it into clipping, especially with clean loud tones.
You might even like that sound.
But it's not the Axe making that sound, it's the power amp making that sound.
Even in stereo,with only 50 watts per side, on in mono bridged mode for 100 watts, you'll probably drive the Carvin into clipping if you have to play any loud clean stuff.
As for me I'd rather have all my tube-power amp breakup simulated and controlled by my Axe FX's Amp Block settings.
My power amp that amplifies the Axe is just supposed to make the Axe's signal louder w/o fucking with it in any appreciable way.
Even if you don't drive the Carvin into clipping, that amp will probably color the tone in some way.
But Carvin does claim that this amp, unlike most guitar-oriented tube power amps, can be operated w/o much or any coloring, so as far as tube power amps are concerned it's probably one of the ones that's more suitable for use with the Axe.

But for me, I prefer all the tube tone to come from the Axe itself.
That's what it's designed to do.
It's designed to get all of the tone of a tube amp into a FLAT ss system.
IMO Get the flattest, most audiophile power amp you can afford with at least 100 watts per side, preferably 200 watts or a bit more.
That's the only way to really know that you're hearing the true signal the Axe is producing.

But even if you do use a sub par power amp you can still get great tones out of the Axe-FX.
You'll just have to spend more time in the depths of the Advanced Amp Parameters tweaking things to compensate for the sonic artifacts that your power amp is imparting on the tone.
Those Advanced Parameters are pretty powerful.
With a really good power amp the default parameters of the various Amp Types all sound killer and all you have to tweak are the 1st page parameters: Gain, Tone, MV, etc.

Good luck.
 
kmanick said:
I got my buddy's Carvin TS100 hooked up, haven't had a chance to crank it yet but at moderate volume it's sounding pretty good.
only drawback is that it's just about as heavy as my JVM head and it doesn't seem all that loud , I even have
it bridged...........so I don't really gain a lot by using it and the Axe VS just using my JVM
going to have to crank it up tomorrow and A/B it against my JVM (since I have multiple 2X12's I can do that in pretty much real time)
icon_e_smile.gif
Click to expand...

I had a TS100, and for use with the Axe Fx, Carvin DCM1540L > Carvin TS100. If you're just borrowing the TS100 to use, not an issue, but if you're looking to purchase it may be something to consider.
 
Try playing through a real Friedman BE100.

I suggest this after looking at your gear: Charvel, Jackson, Marshall, and your presets are Marshall, Friedman.
 
The most important is that it works for you Nick. If FRFR works later. Cool. If not... Also cool.

You should have fun while you play. That's why we all play right... It's fun.
 
axel said:
I had a TS100, and for use with the Axe Fx, Carvin DCM1540L > Carvin TS100. If you're just borrowing the TS100 to use, not an issue, but if you're looking to purchase it may be something to consider.
Click to expand...

I borrowed a Carvin DCM1540L for a couple weeks and was overwhelmed how much power that thing had.
We put a 4x12 on each channel, cranked it up with clean tones and could not get that thing to break up.
We used ear plugs, lots of blankets to cover the cabinets, and laughed ourselves silly.
We actually ran a long guitar guitar cable so we could be outside the garage and it was still way loud.
Currently I run a Matrix GT1000FX as has a 1U form factor, but if I had the space, that Carvin would be MINE!
 
kmanick said:
correct but it also doesn't mean "it doesn't work anymore", and my friends have been gigging for years , they don't need anyone to "show them how to do it"


any way....................sigh, moving on ("these discussions remind of the days when the Line 6 owners swore the Vetta was the best thing since
sliced bread, tube amps are dead yadayadadya, kind of a Dejav vu ) ..........different strokes.
I got my buddy's Carvin TS100 hooked up, haven't had a chance to crank it yet but at moderate volume it's sounding pretty good.
only drawback is that it's just about as heavy as my JVM head and it doesn't seem all that loud , I even have
it bridged...........so I don't really gain a lot by using it and the Axe VS just using my JVM
going to have to crank it up tomorrow and A/B it against my JVM (since I have multiple 2X12's I can do that in pretty much real time) :)
Click to expand...

I understand your points and I too struggled with on stage tone. I kept being told FOH sounded great, but sounded weak and thin to me on stage. I was using the RCF FRFR facing me like a monitor because I like how controlled stage volume could be. Found by putting it behind me a ways, and cranking it more, I got much closer to what I needed on stage. Still doesn't push air like a 412, and never will. I now love my rig with the RCF, but for many people, the sound of a big cab is what they need. I know at the end of the day, FOH is most important because that's where our paying customers are, but if I'm hearing myself with great tone, good stage mix etc, I play much better. A lot of huge acts, loud heavy ones too, are using IEM's, so I know they can work well too. But when I've used them, I felt disconnected from everything and it affected my playing. Whatever works best for you is the best solution.


Sent from my iPhone
 
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yeah, i mean listen, if you're sitting a CLR next to a rocking cab, the cab is always going to have something the CLR doesn't. The way it couples with the floor and walls, the difference in dispersion, the way a cab fills the room that the CLR can't (and isn't meant to). I get it, I really do. Every time I plug into a great amp I have that 5 minutes of "wow this is incredible" then I realize I'd rather have excellence all over the stage, in foh, in every ear, as opposed to that little cone of heaven i get with a cab. I JUST left GC here in Nashville, spent some time in the Platinum room playing a Friedman BE, Steve Stevens, Smallbox and Dirty Shirley. Bognor Shiva and Ecstasy. Vintage Princeton. They were all incredible. Loved every second of it....just glad I have almost all of those in the back of my explorer already, :)
 
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