Now that I have hundreds of amps at my fingertips...I need to learn how to use them better. What are good learning references?

aerial7 said:
Great reply...but I'd like to expand on a couple of things that us beginners are looking for:
  • "schematics" -- it's not like we want to look at wiring diagrams, but we don't know which things are related -- a lot of times various knobs interact with others, and it'd be good to have at least an awareness of that. When people learn an amp, I think this is a big part of what they're internalizing....
  • "derived from" -- it's obviously important to understand a given amp's lineage since so many amps start with existing designs and tweak them. Again, I get the impression that most people build up this knowledge over time, but with 300 amps, it'd be great if there was a tree or something illustrating the genealogy of amps.....(Yes, I've looked for exactly such a thing and still haven't found it.)
"Topology" would be the other thing to add; when you just have an array of knobs to work with, it's not at all obvious where those parameters sit in the signal flow.

All that said, I love that Fractal modeling has advanced to where us newbs can just focus on the authentic tab (or whatever it's called now); even without any real understanding of what I'm doing, I can usually come up with something I like pretty quickly.... With apologies to the OP, I think what we're looking for is a way of actually learning this stuff....
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Agreed.

An amp family tree would be really cool.

This has a post that gives some on the lineage of Fender amps. It's a fun read: https://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44211

Up to a point, Marshalls were very close to HP Twins or Bassmans (which are almost the same amp except for the # of power tubes and the OT), except that the tone stack ends up sapping less voltage from the signal and the knobs do less as you turn them away from flat, which is the same bass & treble off mids all the way up setting. The biggest difference (in the tone stack) is that the mid control on a fender is almost just a gain control and the mid control on a marshall actually affects the high-end more than anything else....if you're starting from flat.

It really is worth playing with Tone Stack Calculator.

But, you can also just play with the knobs until it sounds good. A lot of people have been really successful with that approach.

Androo said:
You hit the nail on the head. I didn't know how to ask concisely for the guidance I wanted but what you wrote is pretty much it. I think the way forward for me is: pick an amp to dig deeper into, find what I can find about the way the tone stack works (non-trivial), and try to emulate notable sounds like @Tahoebrian5 suggested (coincidentally, I was just looking at some of those that Marshall has on YT).
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Thanks. And, yes....

If there's a downside of Fractal (or any modeling), it isn't really even option paralysis but just getting so buried in the options that you don't give something really cool its chance because there's always something else really cool to play with.

If it were me...I'd see if I could find some guitarist you really like who did a Rig Rundown (or similar) or start with a preset that jumps out at you. I'd either replicate the rundown or strip the preset down to the essentials (e.g., amp, cab, maybe reverb) and dig into it from there.

That's basically what I did. Out of the ~300 amps in the Fractal, I haven't even tried to play ~290 of them. Of the ~10 that I have played, 95% of my playing is on 3 of them and about 85% of my playing is on just one. Somehow...I don't feel like I'm "missing out" or not taking advantage of it. I just really like that amp.
 
I recommend maybe not virtually redesigning the amps until you've worked out the front-panel aspects. Stick to the IDEAL page. My experience with the amp models is that the controls on a real amp will often have dead-bands where you can turn a knob and not hear a difference, and interactivity, where you turn one knob and the behavior of another knob changes a bit. They controls also have limits - min and max actual gain, min and max actual tone effect, what have you. In the AXE, I find that the controls tend to have less interactivity than a real amp, and more range of effect. Bass gives more bass than the real amp. Gain gives more max gain than the real amp. I definitely recommend turning "virtual front-panel" knobs, and watching vids where people turn the knobs on the real amp to get a sense of what the amp is about. Fractal has very much captured the characteristic tone and feel of the amps in their models, so you'll want to pick a model that has the characteristic you want, and then season to taste. I don't know why you would virtually rebias an amp unless you were trying to nail the tone and feel of an amp you already have that's been altered by a tech. There are a few vids that describe how to add a bit of air or punch that use a couple of the deeper params, but I wouldn't dive too deep.

Here is a cool way to work out amps with Rhett Shull:
 
@marsonic There ought to be a phrase for the luxury problem of (option paralysis) + (buried in the options). Whatever is it, I feel like I've been living it since I got this thing (...and loving it). I really went under trying to get a good sound on my Parker NightFly's piezo pickups. I didn't have a starting point (reference sound) to latch onto. I got something I like but I felt like I was adrift in the amp sea and thought I should ask for advice to get located.

The advice and vid @elvis posted are also quite helpful. Some of the related content is sure to send me down the YT rabbit hole even further, but I have to remember to actually get back to turning the knobs instead of watching someone else doin' it. =)

Good thing I took the week off
 
A few small sidenotes...

(1) Re. "amp family tree"

I've heard at least two of the big name builders stress it's also about where you put the electronic components. Even if the schematic is virtually identical, the added "genius" might lie in an improved layout. I don't know if this is just to improve noise, or if other aspects are at play too. They might also stress this to try and minimize the fact that they have copied 97% of another schematic... ;)

(2) You probably also know that recorded amps may sound very different in the room and may have been heavily EQ'd...

An interesting tidbit here is that a perfectionist like Jay Graydon seems to feel that for best results the mids have to come from the amp — no tinkering after the fact.

Rivera: Jay Graydon discussing the Rake Head reissue (2017)

Jay: ±"Everything about an amp, to me, is the mids. You can’t add mids later and make it sound right. You have to have mids come from the amp. I prefer a much more mid-range-y tone, and I can add highs to it. You can always brighten up a mid-range-y tone, but when you add EQ on an amp in the control room — EQ after the fact — it never sounds like amp EQ. You're adding mid-range at 800 Hz... it just doesn’t sound right — so the mid-range has got to come from the amp; period." First two strings must have great mids and not thin away like on most amps. You can add highs later, but not mids. "Mids are the first thing that needs to go when you're playing a clean [rhy] sound."

(OTOH, I think he does have EQ instructions for this on his site...)
 
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Brewce said:
I've heard at least two of the big name builders stress it's also about where you put the electronics, even if the schematic is virtually identical. I don't know if this is just to improve noise, or if other aspects are at play too. They might also stress this to minimize the fact that they have copied 97% of another schematic... ;)
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I assume you're talking about the physical layout of the components inside the chassis rather than, say, the order of "big picture" sub-assemblies (e.g., V1A > Tone Stack > V1B or V1A > V1B > Tone Stack)....I've heard this as well.

I've never built an amp. So, I really have no idea. Considering how many things I've seen built on breadboards that work the same as the final product other than noise...I'm not convinced.
 
marsonic said:
I assume you're talking about the physical layout of the components inside the chassis
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Indeed. Some seem obvious and many companies try to avoid certain layouts. I'm just wondering if it's only about noise. Maybe some layouts don't cause noise, but might influence tone in some other ways.

We're talking transformers/coils here, for example. Stuff on breadboards will indeed be less critical, unless small coils can do it too.
 
Brewce said:
Indeed. Some seem obvious and many companies try to avoid certain layouts. I'm just wondering if it's only about noise. Maybe some layouts don't cause noise, but might influence tone in some other ways.

We're talking transformers/coils here, for example. Stuff on breadboards will indeed be less critical, unless small coils can do it too.
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Yeah, that's fair. I'd imagine exactly where the transformers and inductors are matters.
 
So I just spent a couple hours, with fresh ears, going back through the Bank A presets that feature the amps. I recorded the first things that came to mind as I listened to each just to get into the feel of them and hear their differences. After going through all the technical stuff just playing was refreshing as well as instructive. I was listening for the characters and that was inspiring musically. And now I have new material to work from and a few choice amps to dive deeper into for another guitar.

Just to get back to the point of it all (music and creativity), I highly recommend FAS newbies (like me) to just record everything you play while auditioning the new sounds; really, with any new gear. IMHO, it is a great source for new ideas. When I first got the FM9 I took a day off just to go through preset and record those first inspirations. I had about 45 minutes of stuff to build on afterwards.

In sum: learn, tinker, experiment, but PLAY and always record.

...and that Jay Graydon vid was interesting. I want to experiment with that mid-from-the-amp...sometime.
 
Androo said:
...and that Jay Graydon vid was interesting. I want to experiment with that mid-from-the-amp...sometime.
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Some 8 years ago, before seeing that vid, I noticed the same thing on high strings. Only thing I still remember is noticing the Splawn kept them sounding pretty good.

Jay has been planning to start a YouTube channel any day now, but it also seems to keep getting postponed. It would be a majorly interesting one, as he is master player and sound engineer with tons to share. As he already had cancer once, I pray he can still start that channel sooner than later...
 
Androo said:
Thank you both. I've been working my way through those video channels and have spent some time in the amp guide but I was thinking less specifically about the FM9 itself and more generally about "amp technology." To use the Carol-Ann Tucana Clean as an example, there are 9 pages of settings once you go below the simple "Tone" menu. I want to learn more about why I might need to tweak the "Tube Hardness" or "Triode 1 Plate Frequency". I know what a triode is but what will that do to my sound? I'm doing the Edisonian trial-and-error routine now but feel like some instruction might make my efforts more productive.
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Androo, I have also just received my FM9 and am in the same boat as you as far as how to begin. Thanks to you and the other members who posted replies, I now have a starting point. One thing you may consider, start off with one amp model. I would recommend one you physically own (I’m starting with a Blues Deluxe). Try and replicate the sound of your real amp by matching the speaker, etc as close as you can. Then, figure out out what you like and don’t like about that amp and then try modifying some of the more esoteric parameters. Once you have tweaked it to your liking, you will have a lot of knowledge of what everything does. As for myself, I don’t know everything about amplifiers but there are several books about modifying amps available on Amazon (or hopefully your local music shop). Maybe you and I can compare notes. Good luck!
 
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