Not getting the FRFR thing Too many highs coming through

Of course ideal FRFRs don't exist, but my "semi-pro" RCF 322A is way better for wide HF spread than any guitar cab I've ever played through (and I've played through many). Coaxial designs have additional advantages around the crossover frequencies as well, so it's not too hard to find a better solution, even if its not perfect.
 
GM Arts said:
Of course ideal FRFRs don't exist, but my "semi-pro" RCF 322A is way better for wide HF spread than any guitar cab I've ever played through (and I've played through many). Coaxial designs have additional advantages around the crossover frequencies as well, so it's not too hard to find a better solution, even if its not perfect.
I see there are other folks around here who recognize the differences between 12" guitar speakers and proper full range systems. You're quite right, of course.
 
GM Arts said:
Of course ideal FRFRs don't exist, but my "semi-pro" RCF 322A is way better for wide HF spread than any guitar cab I've ever played through (and I've played through many). Coaxial designs have additional advantages around the crossover frequencies as well, so it's not too hard to find a better solution, even if its not perfect.

We should expect them to be better.
I still wouldn't point it straight at my head.
 
joegold said:
We should expect them to be better.
I still wouldn't point it straight at my head.
By your own account, you point your NS-10s at your head. Why, in principle, is a larger FRFR monitor any different?
 
Jay Mitchell said:
joegold said:
We should expect them to be better.
I still wouldn't point it straight at my head.
By your own account, you point your NS-10s at your head. Why, in principle, is a larger FRFR monitor any different?

I've already explained my experiences in this area to you and my thoughts about it.
You decided then that it was a good opportunity for you to belittle my experience.
Why I'm even trying to converse with you about this now is beyond me. I'm sure that most if not all of this post will be edited out or completely deleted by the politburo here anyway.

I've been making my living playing the guitar since the mid 70s. My experiences are real-world professional musician experiences, not laboratory experiences like yours.
Based on your clips, and your IRs, your comments, and your theories, it's my feeling that you wouldn't know good guitar sound if it bit you on the ass.
You can cite all the scientific theories you want about how an FRFR speaker doesn't sound different on axis or off axis. It's bullshit *in my experience*. If I ever experience a speaker like that I'll get back to you.

Mixing in stereo to near field monitors is a different activity with a different purpose than amplifying an electric guitar on stage.

<mod deleleted a line here>

Why not just piss off and leave me alone?
Let me wallow in my own ignorance, ok?
 
I'll respond - courteously, I might add - to one bogus assertion.

I had been making a living playing guitar for five years when you first began. I've played gigs ranging from big bands to Vegas shows, from C&W to funk, and I got called back by every band leader with whom I worked. Returning to school and completing the formal education in physics I had begun in 1969 took nothing away from my musical experience. In fact, I paid my tuition though graduate school at the Georgia Institute of Technology playing gigs. It wasn't easy - I didn't get a lot of sleep for three years - but it was worth it.

Whatever basis you might have for disagreement with me, it is not a lack of professional gigging experience on my part.
 
OK...Jay...

I'm feeling guilty right now and want to apologize for being the first one of us to go ad hominem right out of the gate.
I usually pride myself on letting you be the one who gets personal first. It makes me feel more justified when I then lace into you. I seem to be in a sort of a foul mood today too and just decided to jump ahead a few steps in the process. And I'm surprised that my posts here haven't been deleted! :lol:

It appears that you're trying to stay away from that stuff, so I will too.

The truth is that I highly value the information that you often provide here in these forums.
When you are right, you are right.

But you have a way of dealing with people that is extremely arrogant and often shows disrespect for the other person's experience and perspective. It's unnecessary and you *really* should work on that. I, for one, refuse to put up with it.

And you're *not* always right, even though most folks here just assume that with the scientific stuff you babble on about you must be right because we don't understand it.
Sometimes it comes down to perspective, and taste, which are both subjective. Sometimes it comes down to experience, which is also mostly subjective.

I'm the last guy who should be getting into a pissing contest with anybody about musical talent or professional experience.
Sure, I'm a fairly strong, competent player, with lots of professional experience. But by today's standards I'm no shit-hot player. I'm well aware of this. People in glass houses, etc....

Still...
You and I *do* have significant differences in *taste*. (The following is not meant to be personal, so don't take it that way.)
I don't like the sound of any of your IRs that I have tried thus far.
I don't like the tones I've heard in any of your clips.

So, when I see you talking about guitar tone, in some sort of an absolutist fashion, or what I or someone else should do to get great tone, I just try to ignore you. I'm not always successful at it though.

Now, I've already said all I want to say about my *experiences* playing on-axis and off-axis with FRFR monitors.
If something else comes to mind I'll be sure to post it.
But for now, I've already said all I want to say.

Obviously, we disagree.
 
Back to the topic. Here are some very basic facts:

The goal of an FRFR system is to convert the electrical signal you apply to its input into sound arriving at your ears, with no alteration to any audible characteristics of that signal. One component of that goal is flat amplitude response, both on axis and over a defined set of coverage angles. How well a given speaker model achieves that goal is highly variable.

If the signal you're applying to the input of your FRFR is exactly as you would like it, and you hear "too much high frequency" or "too much bass" or too much or too little of anything, then your FRFR system does not have flat amplitude response.

If you can tweak your Axe-Fx to get a sound you like through a good quality monitor - a few have been mentioned specifically in this thread - then it will sound just as good through a stage system with the same response. Many small monitors have pretty flat response on axis these days. If your sonic reference point is one of those, then you should be able tell right away how close to flat your stage rig is.

The important thing to establish under some set of repeatable circumstances is that you are hearing the signal your Axe-Fx puts out with as little coloration as possible. If you are confident of that, then you can be confident of the effect that any parameter changes you make will have on your sound.

If your reference rig is flat, but your stage rig is not, one option you have is to use equalization in the Axe-Fx to correct for the response of your stage rig. Not all response problems can be equalized, but many of them can. If you segregate the EQ you do to level your stage rig's response from all other EQ in your presets, you can quickly adapt to different playback systems. You can also send the corrected signal to your stage rig while providing a signal without correction (or with different corrective EQ) to FOH.

If you have a reference speaker you know to be suitably neutral, and you still hear too much HF, then (surprise) there's too much HF in the signal from your Axe-Fx. One cause of this is a speaker IR that was acquired via close-mic'ing. The HF content of a close-mic'ed cab can be far greater than what the same cab produces at reasonable listening distances, and guitar tracks are often heavily EQ'ed to compensate for that excess of HF. If you do not want to have to do a similar amount of EQ'ing in your presets, then you should probably try cab sims that are not close-mic'ed.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Back to the topic. Here are some very basic facts:

The goal of an FRFR system is to convert the electrical signal you apply to its input into sound arriving at your ears, with no alteration to any audible characteristics of that signal. One component of that goal is flat amplitude response, both on axis and over a defined set of coverage angles. How well a given speaker model achieves that goal is highly variable.

If the signal you're applying to the input of your FRFR is exactly as you would like it, and you hear "too much high frequency" or "too much bass" or too much or too little of anything, then your FRFR system does not have flat amplitude response.

If you can tweak your Axe-Fx to get a sound you like through a good quality monitor - a few have been mentioned specifically in this thread - then it will sound just as good through a stage system with the same response. Many small monitors have pretty flat response on axis these days. If your sonic reference point is one of those, then you should be able tell right away how close to flat your stage rig is.

The important thing to establish under some set of repeatable circumstances is that you are hearing the signal your Axe-Fx puts out with as little coloration as possible. If you are confident of that, then you can be confident of the effect that any parameter changes you make will have on your sound.

If your reference rig is flat, but your stage rig is not, one option you have is to use equalization in the Axe-Fx to correct for the response of your stage rig. Not all response problems can be equalized, but many of them can. If you segregate the EQ you do to level your stage rig's response from all other EQ in your presets, you can quickly adapt to different playback systems. You can also send the corrected signal to your stage rig while providing a signal without correction (or with different corrective EQ) to FOH.

If you have a reference speaker you know to be suitably neutral, and you still hear too much HF, then (surprise) there's too much HF in the signal from your Axe-Fx. One cause of this is a speaker IR that was acquired via close-mic'ing. The HF content of a close-mic'ed cab can be far greater than what the same cab produces at reasonable listening distances, and guitar tracks are often heavily EQ'ed to compensate for that excess of HF. If you do not want to have to do a similar amount of EQ'ing in your presets, then you should probably try cab sims that are not close-mic'ed.

In a perfect world with perfect gear that would all be true.
But in my experience *nothing* is that flat.
Everything you plug into will colour your sound in some way... sometimes subtly, sometimes grossly.
After I've experienced a truly flat sounding amp/speaker combination that sounds exactly the same on-axis or off-axis I'll get back to you.
Until then, whether I'm using a guitar cab or an average FRFR system I probably won't be pointing it right at my ears.

That's the only advice I wanted to offer the OP in this thread. If it doesn't sound good pointed at your ears, try not pointing it at your ears.
If he's dead set on having a system that he can point at his ears, then he'll have to use some EQ or different IRs to be comfortable. Or he'll have to get one of these ideal FRFR systems you seem to think exists somewhere.

As for me... I've had the experience of using a cheap FRFR system and being very comfortable with the Axe, simply by not pointing it at my ears.
One day I hope to have an FRFR system that I can point at my ears and that will feel great. If it still feels great to play through no matter where else I stand, then that'd be great too. But I have not had that experience yet and I *have* used some fairly decent (although not audiophile quality) FRFR systems before.
 
Most speakers - even stage monitors - are designed to produce their flattest response on axis. If it ain't flat there, the odds of it being closer to flat somewhere else are extremely low.

If your Axe-Fx sounds bad through a speaker with flat response, IMO the best solution is to fix your presets. If your sound is bad in one direction from your speaker and you fix that by just aiming it away from you, then somebody is suffering, it's just not you. :?
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Most speakers - even stage monitors - are designed to produce their flattest response on axis. If it ain't flat there, the odds of it being closer to flat somewhere else are extremely low.

If your Axe-Fx sounds bad through a speaker with flat response, IMO the best solution is to fix your presets. If your sound is bad in one direction from your speaker and you fix that by just aiming it away from you, then somebody is suffering, it's just not you. :?

Yeah... Well when I'm on stage I'm selfish.
If I don't dig the sound I'm getting I don't care what anybody else hears.

But I'm generally not using a speaker with a flat response. I'm using guitar speakers. And I expect them to sound different from different angles. I factor that in when I set up. I try to have it so that my speaker is neither pointed right at my ears or at the audience members ears. And generally, speaking, guitar speakers are quite good at dispersing the sound throughout a room (small to medium size) in such a way that most folks get off on the music. I use open back cabinets because the sound disperses more naturally, to my ears.

If and when I use FRFR speakers, live on stage - as I would use a guitar speaker, if they they happen to behave somewhat like guitar speakers (with respect to on or off axis sound), to me, that doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. That's what I'm used to feeling and what I'm used to dealing with when I'm playing a real amp.
Obviously, it would be best if the tone on axis and off axis was very similar.
Again...I eagerly await the experience of hearing a speaker like that.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Most speakers - even stage monitors - are designed to produce their flattest response on axis. If it ain't flat there, the odds of it being closer to flat somewhere else are extremely low.

And so far, in my experience, this notion of "flat response" from *anything* (whether it's a preamp, a mic, a power amp, a speaker or whatever) appears to be a myth.
*Everything* colours your sound.
The question is whether you happen to like the way it colours your sound or not.
 
facepalm.jpg
 
GM Arts said:
Of course ideal FRFRs don't exist, but my "semi-pro" RCF 322A is way better for wide HF spread than any guitar cab I've ever played through (and I've played through many). Coaxial designs have additional advantages around the crossover frequencies as well, so it's not too hard to find a better solution, even if its not perfect.

I finally brought out my RCF310a/Ultra to a rehearsal and am loving the HF spread of the 310a and being able wander around the room and retain high end for monitoring...the directivity of my 4x12's has bugged me for years since some stages don't allow for optimum placement of it to get in it's sweet spot.
 
Back
Top Bottom