New Interface. Best way to connect my Axe Fx III?

[jshirkey]

As it says in the recording guide, adjust your presets, preferably with the amp block level parameter, so they register an input level in your DAW at around -10 dB. That is an important step in the adjustment of any preset. After you do that, the preset will be suitable for recording.

Okay, I've just come back from doing a bunch of tests using both interfaces and playing with levels. Note: I still haven't created the aggregate device, but that's my next move. I have been switching back and forth between interfaces and recording samples with each at various settings.

With the Axe Fx as my interface, I tried to find optimum levels of around -10db, or maybe just a bit over when it peaks. The waveform is much smaller than anything I record with the iD24, but the volume levels and recording quality seem to be about the same on playback if I playback through the Axe Fx as well. And the reverse also is true.

When I record with the iD24, I can take my levels much higher--way into the yellow--and playback sounds great with the iD24 as my interface. Getting the levels right with each interface requires a fair amount of tweaking, and it's essential to playback through the same interface that the tracks were recorded with. I assume none of this is news to you, but now I have a much better idea of what's going on.

So, when I create my aggregate interface, how will playback work? What if I record a song with some Axe Fx tracks and some that are actually miced up? Does the aggregate automatically play back the tracks through the interface channels that were used to record each individual track?

 

[GlennO]

Okay, I've just come back from doing a bunch of tests using both interfaces and playing with levels. Note: I still haven't created the aggregate device, but that's my next move. I have been switching back and forth between interfaces and recording samples with each at various settings.

With the Axe Fx as my interface, I tried to find optimum levels of around -10db, or maybe just a bit over when it peaks. The waveform is much smaller than anything I record with the iD24, but the volume levels and recording quality seem to be about the same on playback if I playback through the Axe Fx as well. And the reverse also is true.

When I record with the iD24, I can take my levels much higher--way into the yellow--and playback sounds great with the iD24 as my interface. Getting the levels right with each interface requires a fair amount of tweaking, and it's essential to playback through the same interface that the tracks were recorded with. I assume none of this is news to you, but now I have a much better idea of what's going on.

There is plenty of headroom in the level adjustments in the Axe-FX. You can make it as loud as you want, even far into the red and even clipping. The issue is not "how to make it louder?". The issue is how to get a good signal level. "Good" in this context usually means around -10 dB FS as indicated on your DAW input meter is a good target.

Note that this is true of anything that you're recording: an Axe-FX over USB, a mic'ed up cab going through an audio interface, an Axe-FX through an audio interface, etc.

In other words, no matter what you're recording, adjust the levels so it's somewhere around -10 dB FS on your DAW input meter. If you do that adjustment for both your Axe-FX USB recording and your Axe-FX-through-ID24 recording, the recorded audio for both will have similar levels.

The device you're using for playback should not have any bearing on any of this. The level of the recorded audio was determined when you recorded it and the method you're using for playback will have no effect on that.

 

[jshirkey]

The device you're using for playback should not have any bearing on any of this. The level of the recorded audio was determined when you recorded it and the method you're using for playback will have no effect on that.

It does, though. I get what you're saying, but I can't figure out exactly why things sound different when played back through the different interfaces. Is it just the A/D converters? I have no idea. That stuff is over my head, and I'm trying hard enough to get a handle on all the different places to adjust gain and levels.

This much I do know. I set up an aggregate interface with the Axe Fx and the Audient. When I record a track in Logic, I'm making sure my levels are around -10db, with maybe a tad above that level when I dig in--or also if/when I add some plug ins (I can always adjust the input/output inside the plugin, too). It sounds really good now. I still don't understand why the wav file looks so small/squished when compared to what I record when using the Audient (yes, the levels are higher, but they don't distort when played back through the iD24, as I said). So, it is what it is. I may resort to posting screen shots, but if you tell me that's normal, then cool. But I have double/triple checked my levels in Logic, and I'm making sure they are right in that -10 db range.

 

[kptkarl]

So, when I create my aggregate interface, how will playback work? What if I record a song with some Axe Fx tracks and some that are actually miced up? Does the aggregate automatically play back the tracks through the interface channels that were used to record each individual track?

You choose to use the I/O as you see fit in aggregate. It is simply a way for the system or a DAW to see both interfaces as if it were one unit with all the I/Os available.

If you're recording the AxeFX through the analog inputs on the ID24 you'll see/hear a difference due to the preamps and A/Ds. Even if you're levels are about the same. If you use SPDIF there will be no difference.

I run a FM3->ID14mkII in aggregate and have SPDIF going to the ID14 solely for monitoring. Guitars are recorded via FM3 inputs to Logic. All tracks are monitored via ID14 stereo output.

 

[jshirkey]

You choose to use the I/O as you see fit in aggregate. It is simply a way for the system or a DAW to see both interfaces as if it were one unit with all the I/Os available.

I think I get it now. It just took me a little longer than usual b/c I have stuff connected in all kinds of directions. Easy for my pea brain to lose sight of the big picture.

If you're recording the AxeFX through the analog inputs on the ID24 you'll see/hear a difference due to the preamps and A/Ds. Even if you're levels are about the same. If you use SPDIF there will be no difference.

Just about positive I'm recording the AxeFx digitally via USB, and output 1 L/R is what I'm hearing through my monitors when I play.

I run a FM3->ID14mkII in aggregate and have SPDIF going to the ID14 solely for monitoring. Guitars are recorded via FM3 inputs to Logic. All tracks are monitored via ID14 stereo output.

How do you connect the FM3 via SPDIF to your iD14?

Thanks.

 

[kptkarl]

How do you connect the FM3 via SPDIF to your iD14?

Via the coax/optical converter in the first post of this thread.
75ohm coax cable out of FM3 to converter coax in then optical from converter out to optical in on ID14.
ID system panel settings are SPDIF for digital inputs and dig 1 for default clock source.
Audio setup on macOS is aggregate device(ID14+FM3). With ID14 for clock source and sample rate of 48khz.

 

[kptkarl]

Its also very helpful to label the I/O in Logic to something that makes sense to you. Mix menu->I/O Labels (accessible when a project is open)

 

[jshirkey]

Via the coax/optical converter in the first post of this thread.
75ohm coax cable out of FM3 to converter coax in then optical from converter out to optical in on ID14.

Got it. I'm not sure I could do that b/c I'll use the optical cable to connect the ASP880 to the iD24. Unless there is some way for me to connect via AES/SPDIF also, I think I'll have to use the L/R outputs of Output 1 to connect via XLR to the ASP880. From there, the signal will be output over optical to the iD24 for monitoring. Basically, it's the same thing I'm doing now, but instead of connecting straight to the iD24, I'll go to the ASP880, and then to the iD24.

ID system panel settings are SPDIF for digital inputs and dig 1 for default clock source.
Audio setup on macOS is aggregate device(ID14+FM3). With ID14 for clock source and sample rate of 48khz.

I'm going to have to get the clock source stuff straight as well. I think I get it, but I'll do some more reading. I'll see what my ID system settings look like once I add the ASP880. Hopefully that'll be here tomorrow.

 

[kptkarl]

I think I'll have to use the L/R outputs of Output 1 to connect via XLR to the ASP880. From there, the signal will be output over optical to the iD24 for monitoring. Basically, it's the same thing I'm doing now, but instead of connecting straight to the iD24, I'll go to the ASP880, and then to the iD24.

As the ASP880 only has digital outs that would be a way for monitoring.

I'm going to have to get the clock source stuff straight as well. I think I get it, but I'll do some more reading. I'll see what my ID system settings look like once I add the ASP880. Hopefully that'll be here tomorrow.

One device needs to be the master clock source. I would try it with the ASP880 as master set to 48khz. Optical out(ADAT top port) to ID24(ADAT). In your case you'd want ADAT in ID settings to utilize all 8 channels of the ASP880. SPDIF is only stereo. Via the 9-pin DSUB connection on the ASP880 there looks to be AES out. Connect the ASP880 AES out to AxeFX AES input. Setting AxeFX to external clock. Make sure all hardware and software is set to 48khz as that is what Fractal defaults to.

If the AES out on the ASP cannot be used simultaneously with the ADAT out to ID24. Another option would be to set the ID24 as internal(master) and use a 75ohm BNC cable from the ID24 word clock to the BNC word clock on ASP880. Setting the ASP to slave to that. Then you'd also need the coax/opt converter and take the SPDIF/ADAT optical out of the ID24 to input of the converter and coax out into the AxeFx set to external.

Best of luck, Cheers!

 

[jshirkey]

Thank you. I'm eager to get it all hooked up over the weekend. My one fear about the ASP880 is that a lot of people have posted about them suddenly dying. There's a long thread about it on gearspace.com. Three year warranty, though, so I should be good. Fingers crossed.

 

[jshirkey]

I'm coming back to the thread to ask a question about making sure signal levels are right for recording. GlennO wrote the following (above):

"Good" in this context usually means around -10 dB FS as indicated on your DAW input meter is a good target. Note that this is true of anything that you're recording: an Axe-FX over USB, a mic'ed up cab going through an audio interface, an Axe-FX through an audio interface, etc."

I've used his advice as my Golden Rule the past couple days, but when I was experimenting with recording last night (all through the Axe Fx), I realized I still am unclear about where it's best to set the levels in the signal chain. I also am still not 100% clear about exactly what I'm recording. Am I recording the USB signal from the Axe-Fx to my Mac, or am I recording the signal that is being sent from the Axe's Outputs, into my interface, and then into my computer? I have an aggregate device, and when I choose Logic inputs 1 and 2, I'm recording the Axe-Fx, but from what source?

When setting recording levels, I can turn the Audient inputs up or down until I find a signal level that keeps me at about -10db. Or I can go into Axe Edit and dial back the amp's output level until I get the same result. Typically, I've been doing some combination of both things. I found a good, general input level for inputs 1 and 2 on my Audient, and then I would tweak each individual amp I was recording from the Axe-Fx until I got a sound I was pleased with and that also tickled the meters just right.

How much of this is science ("Here's how to do it!"), and how much of this is art ("Here are some guidelines, but it's all about the craft, man!")??

I've got I/O levels from the Axe Fx's global settings to set. I think I'm at about 88 or 90% on input 1. And also output 1 levels. Typically I have two solid green lights lit there, and occasionally into the yellow.

Then I have Audient levels to set. Then I have Axe Edit amp output signals to set.

Then, if I add any drives into the mix, or do an EQ changes, that also changes the gain and the overall output levels. So, there are even more variables.

Gain staging is a huge subject, I realize. Should I just go back to the basics and read about gain staging within the Axe-Fx (RTFM), or should I read more generally about optimal signal levels throughout your recording chain in general?

 

[GlennO]

One of the advantages of digital i/o is that it simplifies gain staging. For your output, simply adjust your preset output to the desired level (usually around -10 dB FS) with the amp block level parameter and you're done.

The channels of your aggregate are assigned in the order the devices are added in the audio midi app. At the top of the audio midi app audio window it will show you exactly which channel goes with which device. In this example, the Axe-FX is shown in gray and is input channels 1-8. My audio device is in blue and is channels 9-18. You can name the channels in Logic to make this clear without having to refer to the audio midi app.

 

[jshirkey]

One of the advantages of digital i/o is that it simplifies gain staging. For your output, simply adjust your preset output to the desired level (usually around -10 dB FS) with the amp block level parameter and you're done.

The channels of your aggregate are assigned in the order the devices are added in the audio midi app. At the top of the audio midi app audio window it will show you exactly which channel goes with which device. In this example, the Axe-FX is shown in gray and is input channels 1-8. My audio device is in blue and is channels 9-18. You can name the channels in Logic to make this clear without having to refer to the audio midi app.


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I know I have to sound like a broken record, but there is one piece of the puzzle I'm not getting, and I think it has to do with how my Axe Fx signal is being recorded. The short answer, I think, is that it's being recorded via USB from the Axe Fx when I choose inputs 1 and/or 2, which seems to be the easiest and smartest way to do things. Anyway...

My Audio MIDI setup looks just like yours for the Axe-Fx, as you'd expect. It's also the first device on my list, just like yours. Then my Audient is listed next with all its inputs and outputs.

My Axe Fx inputs from Axe Fx Output 1 are on inputs 1 and 2. Then my Audient Analog Inputs are inputs 9 and 10.

To test things out, I recorded two audio tracks from inputs 1 and 2. I then did the same thing using inputs 9 and 10. I wanted to see what differences there were, if any. I am just making sure I understand what controls/knobs (virtual or real ones) affect the recording level and results, depending on which inputs I use.

Like you keep telling me, the main thing to be aware of is the preset output level (now that I type that, I realize I've been adjusting the amp output level...which I thought is what you said way back in the thread). That's the primary thing I go to to make sure I have a good signal level based on the channel input meters in Logic.

When I am recording inputs 1 and 2, I can turn the Audient analog 1 and 2 physical inputs all the way down, and it does affect what I'm hearing through my monitors. But it does not appear to affect the recording level. The only things that affect my recording level are the output level settings of the amp and/or the overall preset (by adjusting the "Out 1" block) level, both of which I do in Axe Edit. Turning up the Audient analog 1 and 2 physical inputs does quickly overload and distort those two channels as I monitor them on the meters in my ID software. I guess the best thing to do is leave them all the way down?

If I record inputs 9 and 10, then adjusting the Audient analog ins and outs does affect the recording level. I also record my click track in the process, which, of course, I do not want. And I'd also like to know why the click is being recorded.

So, when I am recording inputs 1 and 2, I am recording the digital signal that is being sent via USB from the Axe Fx to my Mac? If so, then why does Audio/MIDI Setup call inputs 1 and 2 Axe Fx Output 1 L and R (both of which are connected physically to my interface)--or is that exactly what is also being sent via USB digitally to my Mac, while the analog signal is also being sent to my Audient? This is the source of my confusion.

I am even looking at the recording guide now. There is communication via USB between the computer and the Axe Fx, and also between the computer and the audio interface. Then there are analog connections from the Axe Fx to the interface as well. I have all of those things set up correctly, as far as I can tell.

 

[GlennO]

So, when I am recording inputs 1 and 2, I am recording the digital signal that is being sent via USB from the Axe Fx to my Mac? If so, then why does Audio/MIDI Setup call inputs 1 and 2 Axe Fx Output 1 L and R (both of which are connected physically to my interface)--or is that exactly what is also being sent via USB digitally to my Mac, while the analog signal is also being sent to my Audient? This is the source of my confusion.

That's correct. USB channels 1/2 are the L and R outputs of the out 1 block, which is why they are named "Out 1 Block L" and "Out 1 Block R" in audio midi setup. That is not to be confused with the analog output ports on the back of your Axe-FX, which carry the monitor audio to your speakers via your audio interface.

Record your Axe-FX from the Axe-FX usb channels when using configuration #4. Do not record the Axe-FX via your audio interface usb channels. If you're doing that, nothing more needs to be done and you're ready to go.

 

[jshirkey]

Okay, I finally got it. I won't even fool around with recording the Axe Fx any other way.

I still need to read more about gain staging inside the Axe Fx because if I make a little change to the output level of the amp, it then increases the output level overall, so I dial Output 1's level block down a bit. But I find myself going back and forth trying to get things to the absolute best sounding levels. I need to understand the blue bar across the bottom of the amp block page, which shows the levels up to 0db. What's ideal? The same goes for the output block. When it hits the red, obviously things are distorting. Getting this stuff right--or optimal--in each block and at each stage is kind of exhausting. If there's a Wiki on it, could someone let me know? Otherwise, I'm off to RTFM closely.

 

[GlennO]

I suppose you could use the output block level to adjust your preset level, but as I mentioned above, that's not how I would do it. Anyway, there's a chapter in the user manual "Leveling Presets" that covers this subject pretty thoroughly. Just note that the Axe-FX confusingly uses vu meters, so the numbers on those meters will be 12 dB higher than the dB FS numbers you'll see in your DAW meters.

 

[jshirkey]

I suppose you could use the output block level to adjust your preset level, but as I mentioned above, that's not how I would do it.

I think I read this sentence too quickly: "For your output, simply adjust your preset output to the desired level (usually around -10 dB FS) with the amp block level parameter and you're done." I saw "preset output to the desired level" and thought you had switched over to talking about the output block. I see that you were still referring to the amp block.

Anyway, there's a chapter in the user manual "Leveling Presets" that covers this subject pretty thoroughly. Just note that the Axe-FX confusingly uses vu meters, so the numbers on those meters will be 12 dB higher than the dB FS numbers you'll see in your DAW meters.

I'm going to read that tonight, and someone else I know pointed me to this Wiki.

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Connections_and_levels#Setting_levels

Thanks.

 

[Infuseguitar]

I have nothing constructive to add but I will let it be said that you guys are a bunch of freaking geeks and I love you all for it! I just learned so much from reading this thread. I apologize if you’re all slightly dumber for simply reading my comment. Carry on as you were and thank you.

 

[jshirkey]

Do y'all think I should set the output level of the Axe Fx to +4 db or -10db? Likewise, how about my two analog inputs on my Audient? At the moment, I have both the Axe Fx and the Audient set to +4.

As I understand it, the Axe Fx offers -10db, so that connecting to "consumer gear" won't lead to unnecessary service requests! lol (I think I read that in the "levels" Wiki I linked to above.) But my Audient isn't consumer gear (maybe "pro-sumer"), and it can take a +4 input. It sounds...well...louder. But, since I'm still grappling with not clipping the signal from those inputs that go to my monitors, I want to choose the right settings. I think +4 on both devices is the right choice, but what say ye?

 

[kptkarl]

Use +4. If you’re clipping the ASP inputs 1/2 then turn the levels down. If they are down at zero and clipping engage the pad switch.