My AxeFX tone tweaking skills were eaten by a JCM800!!

I'm not even really expecting it to sound the same as the JCM800 (his was EL34's though :) ). I've had roadsters, 5150's, marshalls and many more. They all sound different but any of them playing together could hold up against the other amp as far as fullness, cut etc even though the flavour was different. I've already come to the conclusion that the problem mainly lies in the fact i had the power amp sims on. What sounded good at home just didn't sound good once the boogie was revved up. It sounded digital and harsh. As soon as i turned them off in practice it made a world of difference but then those patches weren't tweaked as preamp only. I really appreciate all the constructive info you have all given me.
 
I just got home from a band practice where I went head to head with a JCM800 into a Marshall 4x12. I was quite sure that I want to go no cab or power amp sims into a 4x12 )or at least a 2x12 myself but before I made that jump I decided to see what FRFR would sound like. So I rented some gear for a month and tried it out tonight for the first time.

The stuff I rented is certainly not top notch quality, all Yorkville, 2x200 Watt power amp and 2 FR monitor wedges with 10 inch and horn each. I setup 4 patches for practice and frankly it worked out quite well. I could not get the low end "kraang that the JCM put out but overall I thought I sat much better in the mix.

Volume was not an issue as I was not getting anywhere near what I could get out of the rig. I use all Bogners, XTC and Uber. We are not a metal band but I really like the Uber on lower drive settings personally. I used a Suhr and a JEM (JEM is tuned down 1/2 step). For cab sims I used a GH12 (I think that's what it is) mixed with the stock German 4x12 and stock Oval. No other reason than that's what I seem to prefer with headphones which actually describes 90% or my playing time.

With some tweaking I think this arrangement will work very well. It is definitely a different sound though. I would describe it as more refined and somewhat less raw but ultimately much more controllable. Before I make the final decision as to which way to go, I will try the power amp into a 4x12 cab and see where that goes. Also want to try FRFR with a 12 inch woofer as well.

What you have as a rig rpurdue is pretty well exactly what I think I want. A tube power amp and a solid cab. I have my eye on the Port City 2x12s personally. Now I am not so sure.

I hope you get your issues worked out. Good luck!
 
axel said:
It could be that your just a JCM800 kind of guy, and there's nothing wrong with that. I doubt I'm the only one here that still has a Marshall head they haven't parted with, and still love to play (or maybe I am).
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Me too (actually it's a Metro 50W Plexi that I built and an old Marshall Greenback cab).

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rpurdue said:
I'm not even really expecting it to sound the same as the JCM800 (his was EL34's though :) ). I've had roadsters, 5150's, marshalls and many more. They all sound different but any of them playing together could hold up against the other amp as far as fullness, cut etc even though the flavour was different. I've already come to the conclusion that the problem mainly lies in the fact i had the power amp sims on. What sounded good at home just didn't sound good once the boogie was revved up. It sounded digital and harsh. As soon as i turned them off in practice it made a world of difference but then those patches weren't tweaked as preamp only. I really appreciate all the constructive info you have all given me.
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Yes. I've just read through the thread and I was about to tell you this. Glad you found out yourself. ;)
 
rpurdue said:
I'm not even really expecting it to sound the same as the JCM800 (his was EL34's though :) ). I've had roadsters, 5150's, marshalls and many more. They all sound different but any of them playing together could hold up against the other amp as far as fullness, cut etc even though the flavour was different. I've already come to the conclusion that the problem mainly lies in the fact i had the power amp sims on. What sounded good at home just didn't sound good once the boogie was revved up. It sounded digital and harsh. As soon as i turned them off in practice it made a world of difference but then those patches weren't tweaked as preamp only. I really appreciate all the constructive info you have all given me.
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+1

Be sure to dial in everything at gig volume, it makes so much difference.

I don't think you'll need to apply the blocking PEQ trick, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Since you're not going FRFR, your guitar cab already does the required filtering for your guitar tone.
 
Thanks Yek! You have amazing sounding presets i've heard on here. Its those that give me faith that the tones are in this thing! Yeah i don't want to use any PEQ etc as ive never needed to use them on any real amps/preamps in the past. Do you recommend not using power sims? It definitely sounded better to our ears but if there was a way to tweak to use them i like the idea of having the depth and extra tone shaping options to work with.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but can't you leave the power amp sim on and just use the SAG control to adjust the power amp sim? According to the manual if it is fully CCW it defeats the power amp simulation.
 
Hey man-

Have you tried turning the master down in the amp block? Turning the sag down (not off) affects the feel, sure, but if you're running into a tube poweramp you probably want to turn down the master in the amp block too. That way you're still getting poweramp emulation, but its as if the amp is just turned down...i.e. mostly preamp distortion. Then you can try to get your poweramp grind from your actual poweramp.
 
If Sag is set to 0, the power amp sim is off. Anything else is on. There is a drastic difference between 0 (OFF) and anything else (ON). No matter how low the setting.

Just try hooking the AxeFx up to studio monitors or simply your stereo and listen to the difference between Sag at 0 and Sat at whatever else.

Oh, and it's not about distortion. It's about tube amps in general.
 
tgunn said:
If Sag is set to 0, the power amp sim is off. Anything else is on. There is a drastic difference between 0 (OFF) and anything else (ON). No matter how low the setting.

Just try hooking the AxeFx up to studio monitors or simply your stereo and listen to the difference between Sag at 0 and Sat at whatever else.

Oh, and it's not about distortion. It's about tube amps in general.
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Yes, I'm well aware of the difference between poweramp sim on and off, and turning sag to 0 and all that great stuff. :lol:

However, there is also a difference between the Master at 8, and the Master at 1, and yes, it's also about the distortion because every part of the signal chain imprints its own form of distortion upon the signal.

Part of the OP's problem may be that he has to much contributing to the overall distortion in the signal, i.e. drive, preamp distortion, poweramp emulation distortion, actual power amp distortion, etc. By turning the poweramp emulation off, he is eliminating it completely from the signal, when all I'm suggesting is minimizing its effects by turning the master down. The sag control (when not at zero) is just one of the controls that affect the way the poweramp emulation works, but it affects the feel moreso than audible tone. The master parameter seems to have more of an effect on the sound itself than the sag.

There's more than one way to skin a cat with the AxeFX, mine is just one suggestion that I haven't seen in this thread, unless I missed it.
 
mouzer said:
Yes, I'm well aware of the difference between poweramp sim on and off, and turning sag to 0 and all that great stuff. :lol:

However, there is also a difference between the Master at 8, and the Master at 1, and yes, it's also about the distortion because every part of the signal chain imprints its own form of distortion upon the signal.

Part of the OP's problem may be that he has to much contributing to the overall distortion in the signal, i.e. drive, preamp distortion, poweramp emulation distortion, actual power amp distortion, etc. By turning the poweramp emulation off, he is eliminating it completely from the signal, when all I'm suggesting is minimizing its effects by turning the master down. The sag control (when not at zero) is just one of the controls that affect the way the poweramp emulation works, but it affects the feel moreso than audible tone. The master parameter seems to have more of an effect on the sound itself than the sag.

There's more than one way to skin a cat with the AxeFX, mine is just one suggestion that I haven't seen in this thread, unless I missed it.
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True. I'm just trying to hammer that point home since I keep seeing posts in between that suggest trying some EQ tricks and even different (physical) power amps etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with the one rpurdue has right now. So I would just keep things as simple as possible while working out the issues. Assuming rpurdue is also using guitar cabs, I would start with getting a good tone out of only an amp block with power amp sims turned off (no cab sim). That should be enough to compare to the Marshall.*

The master volume is going to react differently for different amp models but the great stuff (sag) on/off setting should always be off.

* Note that it's not going to sound the same as a JCM no matter what since the power amp is a Mesa after all, but at least the quality should be comparable.
 
tgunn said:
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True. I'm just trying to hammer that point home since I keep seeing posts in between that suggest trying some EQ tricks and even different (physical) power amps etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with the one rpurdue has right now. So I would just keep things as simple as possible while working out the issues. Assuming rpurdue is also using guitar cabs, I would start with getting a good tone out of only an amp block with power amp sims turned off (no cab sim). That should be enough to compare to the Marshall.*

The master volume is going to react differently for different amp models but the great stuff (sag) on/off setting should always be off.
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I agree with you that the poweramp itself is probably not the problem, that cab blocks should be off if running into actual cabs, etc.

The only problem I have with turning poweramp emulation off completely, is that by doing so you're potentially eliminating half of your tone/feel shaping options. Its not that I think its a bad idea, sometimes it's appropriate to turn the poweramp emulation off, and it might even be the ticket in this case...I won't be able to tell you since I'm not there, and I don't have any experience with OP's rig specifically :D All I was saying is that it might be worth a try to keep the PA emulation on (in order to keep the amp model's characteristics) but turn down the master (along with the associated parameters such as sag/damp/etc) in order to minimize the poweramp emulation's effect on the tone.

In my experience plugging the Axe into different poweramps, the only thing I can say for sure is that every poweramp reacts differently to the signal it's being fed. For example, into the return of an Uber, I thought it sounded better with the PA emulation on, but into the return of an SLO, it sounded better off completely.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the OP should experiment, because there's really no magic setting that will work for everyone, and that I'd encourage him to try it your way, my way, and any way he can come up with.
 
One thing I noticed is the difference it made in my setup by how much juice I pumped from the Axe into the power amp via the Output knob. From my experience, keep that Output knob as high as you can without inducing input clipping on the power amp and subsequently possibly turning down the power amp volume to compensate. I found this to be significantly tastier than higher power amp volume with a lower Axe Output strength.
 
Dinkledorf said:
From my experience, keep that Output knob as high as you can without inducing input clipping on the power amp and subsequently possibly turning down the power amp volume to compensate. I found this to be significantly tastier than higher power amp volume with a lower Axe Output strength.
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There's no difference in the signal from the Axe-Fx other than level, and there would only be a difference in the power amp signal if you were beginning to drive its input circuitry nonlinear with the higher signal level from the Axe-Fx.

Within the range of linear operation of the power amp's input circuitry, the sound will not change at all if you change the Axe-Fx output level and make a compensatory change (i.e., producing the same volume as before) in the power amp level control.
 
Running the Axe output level down is not the idea, unless needed to control volume because the power section is always full on (some amp head fx returns are like this). Rather, try keeping the Axe amp block gain modest and turn up your power amp (real amp) to stage volume, then tweak.

If you don't do that, you can get too much gain/distortion on a patch and your sound power will disappear in the mix when you turn up to normal volume.

JCM800s are not all that gainy. The cut and sustain comes from the loudness and the whomp from driving the 4x12. I think most amps like this were designed to be run at volume because they don't sound all that great and playability suffers at low volume, for me anyway. You have to turn them up. They are pretty simple - just plug in and turn em up and you are usually good to go.

Axe -Fx is trickier because it also allows you to get good sounds and playability at low volume, for practice, and for recording. Because it is so easy and sounds good, its tempting to be creating all the patches while at low volume. The problem is that, unless you also test your patch loud with some backing, you can wind up with a patch that won't do so well at volume, especially if you put a lot of distortion in there. Therefore, pretend you are dealing with a real amp that you have to turn up and always set your Axe-fx live patches while at volume. Even play a backing tape at volume during this. Then experiment with lower preamp gain settings and see how this lower gain can make your sound even heavier for rock/metal. The loudness adds sustain so gain is really less important for that.

I'd start with just an amp block ( no cab block, or peq, or anything else in your chain). Get that dialed in to you liking. As a last step, you can slowly add in any FX you might want to try - when at volume you may find less is more here too.
 
TBurst Std said:
Not meaning to slam at all, but everytime I ready these posts, they are through non FRFR systems, or worst, defeating amp sims. Mainly they are in non-FOH situations.
Seems to be a consistent pattern at least over the last 1.5 years+ I have been here.
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May I ask how can you expect to have frfr systems in every gig\reharsel room you'll step into?

Second thing is, I really cant understand how a FRFR system would sound or mainly feel anywhere near playing with a cab.
 
trippled said:
May I ask how can you expect to have frfr systems in every gig\reharsel room you'll step into?
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Uhh, well, you might consider buying one and taking it with you. Works for me...

Second thing is, I really cant understand how a FRFR system would sound or mainly feel anywhere near playing with a cab.
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"I really cant understand" is the key phrase here. You should be aware that your lack of understanding is not proof that it can't be done.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
"I really cant understand" is the key phrase here. You should be aware that your lack of understanding is not proof that it can't be done.
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Those that say it can't be done should not interrupt the person doing it... :mrgreen:
 
Personally, I don't think it should matter if someone is playing FOH, FRFR or through a 4x12 cab. I think it's just a matter of dialing in the sound you're after through whatever you're using. There's no reason a person should HAVE to get a FRFR set up to get great sounds from the Axefx. The FRFR thing wasn't needed for decades and if the Axefx is as good as I believe it to be, the FRFR still isn't needed to sound great. On top of that, unless you're going to connect to foh at gigs, it makes more sense to have everything dialed in to a good, old 4x12 cab or whatever because it's going to be a lot simpler miking (that's right-I said "miking" and not "micing") process than with a frfr set up.
Seriously folks, we're all sitting there dialing in the factory amp sims the way "we" like them anyway, so I think it's a bit silly to tell someone they need an frfr set up to sound "good" or "right" etc. You just need a decent set of ears and a halfway decent amp and cab.
In the end, who cares what a JCM800 sounds like. A better question to ask is how do I like my JCM800 to sound?

I'll shut up now and go do my dead lifts!

Steve
 
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