Monitor help

M

Mowgli86

Member
Hi guys, I know this has been touched on many times, but I’m new to the game here:
Only ever played guitar through an amp and cab, and never “treated” a room before.
My Mark V25 is too damn loud for daily use (if I want it to sound good anyway), and for the price of a Waza Tube Amp Expander I realised I could get an FM3.
Really want a stereo set up for delays, and useable home volumes, so I’ll be playing guitar through a set of monitors (decided on Eve SC207’s after much reading, as they have less negative press than the A7X’s), my question is whether this is total overkill as I may not be able to have my own treated studio for over a year. Will it really make that much difference and render all my tones crappy ?

I’ll get some headphones too (Beyerdynamic DT770’s recommended by lots of you), but I really want a set up where I don’t rely on having to wear them to play guitar every time. Thanks in advance for any help
 
You understand that playing a modeler through monitors isn't going to sound or feel the same as playing through a guitar cab, right?
 
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Mowgli86 said:
Hi guys, I know this has been touched on many times, but I’m new to the game here:
Only ever played guitar through an amp and cab, and never “treated” a room before.
My Mark V25 is too damn loud for daily use (if I want it to sound good anyway), and for the price of a Waza Tube Amp Expander I realised I could get an FM3.
Really want a stereo set up for delays, and useable home volumes, so I’ll be playing guitar through a set of monitors (decided on Eve SC207’s after much reading, as they have less negative press than the A7X’s), my question is whether this is total overkill as I may not be able to have my own treated studio for over a year. Will it really make that much difference and render all my tones crappy ?
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Yes, it will make a big difference. Using decent monitors will allow you to get great sound at lower volumes. As for whether your room will sound good without treatment, that depends on your room of course, but that might turn out to be important.
 
Jason Scott said:
You understand that playing a modeler through monitors isn't going to sound or feel the same as playing through a guitar cab, right?
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So I’m told Jason.......but enough of the pros do it instead of cranked tube amps at home, and I’ve tried attenuators which I hated, so this was the logical route I thought ??
 
GlennO said:
Yes, it will make a big difference. Using decent monitors will allow you to get great sound at lower volumes. As for whether your room will sound good without treatment, that depends on your room of course, but that might turn out to be important.
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It’s a room with two huge double doors, a window (all double glazed), and no carpet, this isn’t sounding good haha. There’s a rug and some furniture at least. Measures less than 3x4m.

Anyone find a weird transition to monitors from using speakers, or have experience with the Eve’s ? Wondering if the 7’s are going to be too big and I should look at the SC205’s instead.....
 
Mowgli86 said:
So I’m told Jason.......but enough of the pros do it instead of cranked tube amps at home, and I’ve tried attenuators which I hated, so this was the logical route I thought ??
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Imagine miking a cab and listening to the output over a pair of monitors in a completely different room. That's what it'll sound like.
 
As I’ve never played without amp into cab, I really don’t have a clue, surely using IR’s etc will achieve the tones I’m looking for....? I’ve been loving Leon Todd’s tones / tutorials, it’s the main reason I’ve decided to go this route.

What set up do you use then ?
 
Mowgli86 said:
As I’ve never played without amp into cab, I really don’t have a clue, surely using IR’s etc will achieve the tones I’m looking for....?
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It depends on the tones you're looking for. Keep in mind, an IR emulates the sound of a miked cab. Let me explain. While you may never have played through anything but an actual amp and cab, I know you're intimately familiar with the sound of recordings of amps and cabs. Think about it. Every guitar part you've ever heard on a commercial album is a recording of an amp and cab(ie. a miked cab). Would the guitar parts on your favorite studio tracks sound exactly like what you hear on the album if you were actually in the room at the studio with the artist listening to them play those parts live? No, because you'd be hearing the direct (unmiked) sound from the cab. That's the difference.

Mowgli86 said:
What set up do you use then ?
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I use the Axe-Fx through a pair of monitors.
 
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Jason Scott said:
It depends on the tones you're looking for. Keep in mind, an IR emulates the sound of a miked cab. Let me explain. While you may never have played through anything but an actual amp and cab, I know you're intimately familiar with the sound of recordings of amps and cabs. Think about it. Every guitar part you've ever heard on a commercial album is a recording of an amp and cab(ie. a miked cab). Would the guitar parts on your favorite studio tracks sound exactly like what you hear on the album if you were actually in the room at the studio with the artist listening to them play those parts live? No, because you'd be hearing the direct (unmiked) sound from the cab. That's the difference.


I use the Axe-Fx through a pair of monitors.
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Thanks Jason, I get that part, but if so many users keep telling me I’ll be disappointed or that it’s so different to the norm, it’s making me wonder why I’m doing it at all ?!

I play mostly heavier styles, got an ESP eclipse and an Xotic strat, and this is all just for playing, not recording etc at the moment.
I started looking at the Axe fx once I realised a) how good it sounded, b) what a bargain it seems when you compare the price of multiple other amp purchases, and c) that it was the last logical choice after trying the Ox Box and Ironman attentuators to no avail.

Damn annoying that I can’t try anything out for myself, either with fractal products or studio monitors / headphones
 
Mowgli86 said:
Thanks Jason, I get that part, but if so many users keep telling me I’ll be disappointed or that it’s so different to the norm, it’s making me wonder why I’m doing it at all ?!
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Since you're used to hearing a real cab when you play, I think people are just trying to make sure you understand that the sound of the Axe-Fx through monitors doesn't sound like what you hear when standing in front of a cab. It sounds like what you hear coming out of your speakers when you listen to YouTube demos of the Axe-Fx. That's pretty much what you can expect things to sound like on your end when playing through monitors. Do YouTube demos of the Axe-Fx sound like an amp and cab? Sure! Absolutely! But they sound like an amp and cab recorded with a mic, not the sound you hear when standing in front of a cab. Know what I mean? It's a simple but important distinction.
 
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Joe Bfstplk said:
What amuses me to no end about the 'amp in the room' thing is the amount of time spent and compromises made by many to get their amp, in their room, to sound like the tone on the record, which is the sound of an amp recorded with at least one microphone.... 🤪
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Haha very true, never thought about that. Spent years trying to get as close to The Black Album as I could, very happy with results from my Mark V25, just not at lower volumes. Unless the 1x12 is pushing serious air, it‘s just not the same. This is all a learning curve
 
Jason Scott said:
Since you're used to hearing a real cab when you play, I think people are just trying to make sure you understand that the sound of the Axe-Fx through monitors doesn't sound like what you hear when standing in front of a cab. It sounds like what you hear coming out of your speakers when you listen to YouTube demos of the Axe-Fx. That's pretty much what you can expect things to sound like on your end when playing through monitors. Do YouTube demos of the Axe-Fx sound like an amp and cab? Sure! Absolutely! But they sound like an amp and cab recorded with a mic, not the sound you hear when standing in front of a cab. Know what I mean? It's a simple but important distinction.
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I hear you Jason, cheers. And sorry as I’ve just seen the same thing discussed multiple times elsewhere on this forum......you’re all very patient.
I still feel like a digital set up is the best way to go for me to achieve consistent results here, as my amp sounds different every time I turn it on.
And hell yes if it sounds like some of the demos I’ve heard that’s fine by me.
 
Hi again guys, need some help (again.....)
Can’t source the EVE SC207’s for a few weeks, and I’m starting to think they are overkill for my smallish untreated room. I was thinking about the Eve SC205 or Adam A5X but all reviewers seem to say they end up buying a sub down the line due to lack of low end. I want good bass and to move some air, but it’s unlikely I’ll ever have a treated room or big space to play in, so not sure which way to go here......?! Do I go 7” to give me thump, or 5” to be more manageable and not piss off my lady in the next room ?
I play mostly heavy crunch rhythm stuff, so it has to work with that.
Cheers
 
Guitars arent supposed to have bass frequencies like a bass does, so I'd stop worrying about low end unless its for music playback.

5" is fine. Buy somewhere with a 30 day return policy so you dont have to worry about it.
 
Well I want to use them for music too, but playing is the priority. It’s the kind of thing I want to buy once. I’m a tone chaser, I just figured 7” were too much if I’m crammed into a desk in the spare room......
 
Mowgli86 said:
Well I want to use them for music too, but playing is the priority. It’s the kind of thing I want to buy once. I’m a tone chaser, I just figured 7” were too much if I’m crammed into a desk in the spare room......
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Looking at this objectively, nothing we say on the forum will get you the sonic/tonal outcome that you are seeking with precision. It will require some exploration and trust of other members opinions on here.

<off the soapbox>

So okay, now the we know you want to do the following:
  1. Reference your Axe FX as an FRFR (full range / flat response) - make the guitar tones sound as good as recordings
  2. Play music or duplicate tunes through the studio monitors as well
  3. Assumption - you want to record and mix/master dynamically with high quality monitoring
With all of that said and from my experience, the Adam lineups (with a sub) will deliver one of the best results. Also, 7" is recommended as it is the basic standard of providing more sonic range in a variety of envrionments.

Keep in mind, you can achieve the tone and the feel of a referenced (recorded) amplifier from the Fractal Audio gear. That is remarkably important to note, that you are hearing a recorded version of that amp at whatever volume you wishing to do that in. You cannot reproduce a complete feeling of an amp (IMHO) as others mentioned here.

It's kind of like trying Paleo, some of the flavoring of the real thing compares well, but you occasionally miss that real beef flavor. It's a hyperbole, but similar because you're talking about what you have been accustomed to for a long period of time, then changing your approach to building the ideal rig.

For myself, I grew up on Digitech & Line 6 PODs, so when I went for Fractal, it was a no-brainer/easy transition. I can empathize with those who had a Mesa Boogie their entire life then get an AFX/FM3 and scream "how come this computer doesn't sound like that tubed amplifier over there".

You can start small though also, don't feel you have to buy the $1K studio gear that has the highest reviews. Sometimes you need to look on used sites or craigslist type sites for what is out there and experiment. I have both a Samson Radiance 5 setup for listening to music/recording, then the Adam T7V's (both from CL) for listening to my Fractal gear.

Just a lengthy thought and approach to answering your deeper rooted questions and search for tonal bliss. Good luck!!
 
Ok. Some great stuff here thank you sir. Points 1-2, correct, point 3, eventually yes.
That’s part of the reason that I have been unable to commit until now, and I’ve definitely been exploring. Poor Sussi over at G66 (I’m in France) must’ve had enough of my changing waiting lists etc, and after a LOT of indecision I ended up going with the FM3. I felt not worthy of the big boy, I am not planning to do much recording (for now), so it’s mainly for daily noodling. For my first modeller I figured I should start with something not quite flagship, plus I’m not a complex tone guy, and @2112 gets all the tones I’m looking for from his FM3 just fine.....

After cancelling my Axe III order I tried the Two Notes Captor X (badly made, hard to use) with my Boogie. Then the amp alone at low volume again (fizzy, no punch), and bought a Fillmore 50 head for an absolute bargain, so I may hang onto that just out of principal. But 25-50W tube amps are not made for bedroom playing, and unless I’m annoying my neighbours and ears there doesn’t seem to be any way of turning them down to achieve the same effect. The best of the lot seems to be the Waza Tube amp expander, but it’s more expensive than the FM3, doesn’t work with my 09 MacBook, and I’ll still end up playing 2 amp heads through one cab. The Waza headphones I’ve used mostly this past year are modelling, and they’re great, there’s just something missing with the high gain tones. Enter the FM3.

Enough of you fine folk have sold ALL your tube amps that I’m sure Fractal must be the way forward for me. Plus I saw that Cygnus will reach the FM3......🤙🏽

This forum and the way the fractal management interact is like nothing I’ve ever used, epic.
Just one last thing, you can eat Beef on a paleo diet 😜
 
The only reason not to buy something is money and space. There is no "good enough" measure that must be met first.

Buy from somewhere with a good return policy. If 5"s wont work then send them back for 7s. Theres many posts on the subject across many forums, and the same names pop up. Pick a model and give it a spin.

Its better to have something to use and use it than spend time reading about everything IMO.
 
I'll toss my two cents in. I have an AXE III, Helix, and my tube amps. I have used attenuators for a long time and still plan to use them in certain use cases. These are all tools. Horses for courses. I find that if you want the amp in the room sounds then the amp in the room (perhaps attenuated slightly) is the right tool. I can't often play at those levels, so I decided to go with a modeler (Helix first, the wisely shifted to Axe FX III) into monitors. But it was missing the amp in the room feel, as it should, because, well, no amp in room. So then I upgraded my monitors to Presonus 8XT/Sub combination and this helped a bit in that regard. Better low end, etc, not as brash as the JBL 305's I was using prior. I find the Axe FX III into this setup is the right approach for me, and I'm learning how to better tweak the Axe to my liking.

Recently I decided to buy a UAD Ox Box for my tube amps, and am running that into the same monitors I mentioned. That was an epiphany in tone. I flat out love the sounds I can get through this setup. Not amp in the room, but more so than I've been able to coax out of a modeler alone as I had been configuring them. Which tells me that I need to break out of my pre-conceived mindset on how to configure my Axe and experiment. If you love your tube amp and want to get quick and easy fantastic sounds through monitors, I highly recommend the Ox. The room micing and ambience that can be dialed in works so well for me and is just inspirational. It still isn't Amp in the room, but it feels like amp in the room to play because of the ambience and ability to place mics left/right in the soundstage. Impressive.

That said, I'm also loving Cygnus Beta 4. Love my Axe FX too.
 
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