Momentary MIDI CC for unlatched effect on/bypass doesn't work!?

[vrn]

Hi Guys,

I have been trying to set up my FM9 to keep my Wah on only as long as external CC #80 is "on", i.e. at value 64+. In other word momentary/unlatched switching. Nevertheless, it keeps working as "toggle" and I simply can't find the problem. I have set "auto-on" to off in the block and assigned "none" as modifier for bypass of the wah. Moreover, I have globally set CC #80 to control bypass of Wah 1 and I have set global bypass control to "Value" (not toggle). Accordingly, I was expecting it to work, but it doesn't. I have checked and double checked, but it keeps working as "toggle" on/off. Moreover, if I change global CC bypass control to "toggle" it still does exactly the same, hence I am beginning to suspect that "value" doesn't work correctly. For the record I also checked my source Midi CC and it is indeed "momentary" (0-127).

Does anyone have an idea what might be wrong, or how I may diagnose further?

Thank you very much in advance!

Best regards,

V<

 

[unix-guy]

This would be the job of your midi controller to send the ON value when you press the switch and then the OFF value when you release it.

 

[GlennO]

This would be the job of your midi controller to send the ON value when you press the switch and then the OFF value when you release it.

Not in toggle mode, no. He’s saying he can’t turn toggle mode off.

To the OP: in case it helps, value mode is working correctly for me on my axe fx.

 

[Admin M@]

I'll check this on the FM9, but I'd like you to email support please so we don't lose track of your request.

 

[unix-guy]

Not in toggle mode, no. He’s saying he can’t turn toggle mode off.

To the OP: in case it helps, value mode is working correctly for me on my axe fx.

But he's also talking about momentary.

The midi controller needs to send a CC indicating a state change to on and off, right? Because a CC isn't momentary.

 

[GlennO]

But he's also talking about momentary.

The midi controller needs to send a CC indicating a state change to on and off, right? Because a CC isn't momentary.

He’s saying the value sent by the controller doesn’t make any difference. In other words, it’s stuck in toggle mode. Anyway, it sounds like Matt understands the issue.

 

[unix-guy]

He’s saying the value sent by the controller doesn’t make any difference. In other words, it’s stuck in toggle mode. Anyway, it sounds like Matt understands the issue.

Unless he has confirmed that the source midi controller is actually sending on and off values when pressed and released then I'm not sure we can assume the problem is with the FM9...

But I'm sure Matt and support folks will get it sorted out.

If I get time later maybe I'll see if I can simulate this with my Expression IO.

 

[unix-guy]

I tested this tonight.

I set one jack on my Expression IO to a "Dual CC" type, with CC#64, OFF value of 0 and an ON value of 127 with a momentary switch connected.

The Dual CC type has an option for selecting Toggle. It was off.

I set External Controller 5 to map to CC#64.

I assigned External Controller 5 to Bypass of the Wah block.

Pressing and holding the switch engaged the Wah. Releasing the switch bypassed the Wah.

Changing the Toggle setting to be ON instead would require pressing the switch to engage and pressing again to bypass.

Both of these things indicate to me the the FM9 is doing exactly what it should be doing.

Additionally, the Expression IO software visually indicates the CC values of the switch and matched the behaviors of the FM9.

@vrn - what midi controller are you using? Can you share screenshots of the configuration?

Are you sure the switch is momentary?

 

[GlennO]

Pressing and holding the switch engaged the Wah. Releasing the switch bypassed the Wah.

Changing the Toggle setting to be ON instead would require pressing the switch to engage and pressing again to bypass.

Both of these things indicate to me the the FM9 is doing exactly what it should be doing.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Both toggle and value mode on the FM9 will act the same in your test, so your test doesn't indicate whether or not value mode is acting like toggle mode, which is the problem he's reporting. To test that, you need to vary the initial state or, and I'm guessing this might be what he's doing, use a continuous controller, not a switch. Also, you're not controlling the bypass the same way he is. Again, if it helps, I can report value mode works correctly on my Axe-FX.

 

[unix-guy]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Both toggle and value mode on the FM9 will act the same in your test, so your test doesn't indicate whether or not value mode is acting like toggle mode, which is the problem he's reporting. To test that, you need to vary the initial state or, and I'm guessing this might be what he's doing, use a continuous controller, not a switch. Also, you're not controlling the bypass the same way he is. Again, if it helps, I can report value mode works correctly on my Axe-FX.

Yes, I see I didn't match the assignment... I misremembered and thought he was using Bypass. I can try to test that tomorrow.

However, if you read his post again, he said he set it to "value" not "toggle". After it didn't work he set it to "toggle" and it still didn't work.

I don't understand what you're saying about varying the initial state. A momentary switch is either on or off (depending on normally open or normally closed) until pressed. I don't understand what would vary in that scenario.

Maybe I'm just totally missing something here?

 

[Admin M@]

I tested [Effect Bypass Mode: TOGGLE vs. VALUE] tonight.

I tested it too.

I had no problem under either 7.0 release or the latest privately released beta.

I tested with MIDI CC#17 sent over USB, using values of 0 and 127.

The Amp 1 block is globally set to BYPASS: CC#17

With "Eff. Bypass Mode" set to VALUE, 0 bypassed the block and 127 engaged it. I tested 0,127, 0,127,0, 0, 127,127,0

With "Eff. Bypass Mode" set to TOGGLE, 0 or 127 alternatingly bypassed or engaged the block. I tested 0,0,127,127,0

 

[unix-guy]

One thing I realized this morning:

I had set the Expression IO jack as a sustain pedal. It doesn't have any option to make a switch be a momentary operation.

So this is really a switch acting more like a continuous controller but only allowing the min/max values.

Additionally, I think it's really important to know the midi controller used by the OP because he may be confusing "momentary" in his setup to mean "momentary operation" as opposed to setting the switch on the device to know it's a momentary switch (versus latching).

The controller I am using has the option to define the switch as momentary or latching, but that's about the switch that's connected not the function of using it.

 

[vrn]

Thank you guys,

I am probably just doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out.

I am using a Boss EV-1-WL (wired to the MIDI port for the time being, but planned to become wireless using a WM-1). I have an unlatching switch connected to the EV and I've set it up to send momentary CC 80# in the Boss EV-1 app. I want my wah to be on as long as the switch is held (i.e. "on") and off as soon as I remove the foot from the switch. However, it doesn't work even when set up as mentioned above. It doesn't make a difference whether I set bypass to "toggle" or to "value" on the FM9, both settings work as "toggle". Really strange. The FM9 is running FW 7 and otherwise acting normally.

Fyi, my plan is to integrate the unlatching switch in the pedal surface of the EV-1 to turn on wah as soon as I place my foot on it and off as soon as I remove he foot. I have long tried to love Fractal's auto-(dis)engage, but I always seem to forget to park the pedal in the right position, so it stays activated. It simply doesn't work for me. Btw. I have a similar setup for my Axe-II using expression pedals with integrated unlatching band switches on the surface and connected to the pedal ports of the FC101 and it works like a charm. I just want the wireless option for my FM9 and I had other plans for the pedal ports.

Best regards,

V<

 

[GlennO]

It doesn't make a difference whether I set bypass to "toggle" or to "value" on the FM9, both settings work as "toggle". Really strange. The FM9 is running FW 7 and otherwise acting normally.

As you can see above, it's not that easy to distinguish between value and toggle mode. With an unlatched switch, you can only tell them apart by changing the initial state and that's not easy with a hardware switch. Matt did it, but presumably only by setting values in his DAW. What exactly do you mean by "work as toggle"? If you mean the bypass changes each time you press the switch, that probably means your switch is set to latching mode. Value and toggle mode on the FM9 will be indistinguishable in that case and it will work exactly as you describe. Hook it up to a computer so you can see the midi messages and it should become clear what's going on.

 

[unix-guy]

Thank you guys,

I am probably just doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out.

I am using a Boss EV-1-WL (wired to the MIDI port for the time being, but planned to become wireless using a WM-1). I have an unlatching switch connected to the EV and I've set it up to send momentary CC 80# in the Boss EV-1 app. I want my wah to be on as long as the switch is held (i.e. "on") and off as soon as I remove the foot from the switch. However, it doesn't work even when set up as mentioned above. It doesn't make a difference whether I set bypass to "toggle" or to "value" on the FM9, both settings work as "toggle". Really strange. The FM9 is running FW 7 and otherwise acting normally.

Fyi, my plan is to integrate the unlatching switch in the pedal surface of the EV-1 to turn on wah as soon as I place my foot on it and off as soon as I remove he foot. I have long tried to love Fractal's auto-(dis)engage, but I always seem to forget to park the pedal in the right position, so it stays activated. It simply doesn't work for me. Btw. I have a similar setup for my Axe-II using expression pedals with integrated unlatching band switches on the surface and connected to the pedal ports of the FC101 and it works like a charm. I just want the wireless option for my FM9 and I had other plans for the pedal ports.

Best regards,

Maybe I'm missing something but that sounds cumbersome to use. You would need to hold down the switch with one foot and operate the pedal with another foot? Or is the Wah block set as some sort of airport auto Wah?

I checked the manual and it has next to no information on the switches.

I see this in the App manual. Is this where you're setting "momentary"?



Based on this from the App manual, it does appear to be a momentary function:

I agree with Glenn that checking the actual incoming midi with a midi monitor would really help.

Assuming you have a way to connect the pedal to a computer (USB to midi adapter)?

Midi-OX is a good tool for this.

 

[vrn]

Thank you guys, I will recheck the scenario again-again and try to go safe with a MIDI-monitor to really make sure, the FM9 is receiving the right data from the EV-1. I do believe, however it is set up correctly, i.e. in line with the illustration by Unix-Guy (thanks!). Anyway, I will be travelling for the next days ("Copenhell" festival , so it may take a bit before I have time to experiment...

As for the function/convenience of my auto-on/off system, the unlatching switch will be integrated in/on the surface of the expression pedal and wired internally to the input jack of the EV-1, so placing the foot on the expression pedal will immediately turn the effect on and it stays on until I remove the foot. It is similar to the "Automagic Wah" (https://www.silvermachine.de/de/silvmac.htm, great pedal btw.). As mentioned, I already have such well-functioning setup for my Axe FX-II, i.e. I have normal Ernie Ball expression pedals with a ribbon-switch glued to the surface of the pedals and separately connected to a pedal port of the FC101. Here is something like the type of switch I use (https://www.tapeswitch.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=1400). Sorry I don't have a pic of my setup handy. For the EV-1-WL, I have planned to use something more similar to the one used on the Automagic Wah, the reason being that the EV-1 will be stored and handled separately and the tape-switch construction is somewhat fragile (my EB expression pedals are mounted securely in a case and the construction well-protected. It has been working well for years).

 

[vrn]

Btw, so far I didn't check the EV-1 with the Axe-II since it is in a remote practice room, anyway that may also be worthwhile...

 

[unix-guy]

Have you ever tried using a spring loaded expression pedal like the Mission Engineering EP-1? They work great with auto-engaged Wah...

 

[Admin M@]

At the risk of sounding obtuse, why not just use Auto-Engage like so many others in the Fractal Audio Artist sphere?

 

[unix-guy]

At the risk of sounding obtuse, why not just use Auto-Engage like so many others in the Fractal Audio Artist sphere?

In a previous post the OP said:

I have long tried to love Fractal's auto-(dis)engage, but I always seem to forget to park the pedal in the right position, so it stays activated.

Which is why I proposed the spring loaded EP-1 - no option to forget!