Modular Amp Newbie: Is FM 3 right for me? Or Kemper Stage?

A

alexreinhold

New Member
My first post :) First, let me say that I am aware of the Kemper Stage vs Fractal FM3 threads here and on other forums. However, after hours of reading, I am still not sure what is right for me. That's why I decided to started this thread.

Current equipment:
  • a Steavens Poundcake boutique amp (with some standard effects) played on a Mesa 2x12 cab
  • Amplitube/Neural DSP via a Scarlett 2i2.

What I do:
  • practice & rehearse 30% (via amp)
  • record 65% (via Amplitube / Neural DSP or re-amping the amp)
  • play live 5% (via amp) - I hope this one will go up though

I want to extend my setup by a piece of hardware that:
  • gives me an edge over Amplitube / Neural DSP in terms of sound and more flexibility than my amp
  • is small and portable but can be extended with a power amp to use with a cab
  • can be used for everything - practice, recording, gigging

About me:
  • I am not on an eternal tone chase. I like to spend a good amount of time to create a "home" having 5-10 main sounds that work really well for me. Once that's done, I usually don't like to tweak all too often. I can therefore see myself work with either profiles or full signal chains.
  • I am used to configuring signal chains in Amplitube / Neural DSP and I quite enjoy it
  • I am based in Germany and would either get the Stage locally for 1550€ or the FM3 from the US (I'm traveling there often) for around 900€ (the local price is 1400€ - why would I?). Hence, after-market support (given that I am in Germany) is a topic.

Thanks for all the kind advice!
 
Since this is the Fractal Forum, any advice you get here will be obviously favor the FM3 …though there are a number of us here who have had both, myself included (I have an OG lunchbox model) .. they are both very capable units, and in the end, no one can make this choice but you.
If you can find or create the amp profiles that fill your needs , which IMO is certainly not guaranteed with the stock amp profiles on KPA, you could possibly be content, but FM3 has the definitive collection of awesome onboard amps and, crucially , a superior Cab collection as well..where Kemper falls short. But I have seen many of the greatest players in the world use one or the other…..
If there is any way you can get your hands on both units with a return window, that would be the best answer….good luck on your journey, and maybe we will see u around these pages…….
 
Thanks a lot for the honesty bradlake. You'll certainly see me around - am a big fan ob both the innovation that Fractal and Kemper have brought upon the world of guitar playing. If I had the cash, I'd support both companies (but unfortunately I don't). Honest answers such as yours help!
 
I had the Kemper and went for Fractal. It was a huge improvement for me. I’m basically a studio player and the sound quality and flexibility of Fractal is unmatched.

I use few presets as well. But to get the few I needed on Kemper costed me time and money (commercial profiles…free ones are unusable for me). With Fractal you got all you need, ready to be used. Nothing else to buy or search.
 
No idea about international support.

I've played a Kemper a couple times but only owned Fractal as far as hardware modelers go. So, take this with a grain of salt.

I'm convinced that they're both good. And I prefer both significantly to my experiences with software. But, the difference to me is more of philosophy than capabilities or even sound.

Kemper does a very good job of capturing someone else's amp (and their settings) in their room with their cab and their recording chain. In my mind, that's not too different from buying (or getting for free) presets for Fractal. Except that you're more limited in the changes you can make. On the other hand, Fractal does a very good job of modeling any or all the things in the signal path and gives you at least as much control over them as any other modeler. I would say it gives you more control, but I'm not sure about software modeling...you would know better than I do.

So, for me, the Kemper wasn't really a consideration. I don't have anything against MBritt or any of the other people making profiles, but I didn't want to be at the mercy of finding a profile that happened to be the amp/cab I wanted to try and the settings that I'd want on it, especially for amps I'm not familiar with, because I wouldn't know how I want them set. One of the things I knew I wanted to try (a Tweed Twin turned way up into a pair of Classic Lead 80s) was something that I couldn't find a profile for. In the Fractal, it was easy not only to try it but also to make subtle tweaks to it that would require modifications to a real one (or one that was captured for Kemper). And, it's turned out to be one of my favorite amps I've ever played.

After getting it, there are a couple things (specifically being able to change the cabinet impedance curve and the amp block output dynamics) that do a tremendous job of "tweaking" the sound and feel and giving me what I wanted. Plus making it almost trivial to try things like different master volumes, biasing hot or cold, under/over-powering it, etc..

At least to me, it's not about "better". It's about how you want to work.

If I already had a rig that I really liked and just wanted to simplify my stage setup, I'd probably lean more toward Kemper. As it is...Fractal is a better solution to me and at this point the only modeling thing I'm really interested in. I'm very happy with my choice.
 
Here's my take as someone who owns all 3 things you mentioned: FM3, Kemper Stage, and nearly every NDSP plugin.

Tl: Dr, they all have strengths and weaknesses. I personally don't think any of these options do everything perfectly.

Recording: if you have a capable computer that can handle loads of plugins running, and you're good about freezing tracks and track management, my preferred method is now recording and mixing with plugins. Nothing is easier than plugging directly into your interface and loading up the right sound in the plugins. And if you need to fix anything about the track, like a timing issue, you don't need to reamp. Latency isn't much of an issue for me because I'm pretty vigilant about not mixing until all the tracking is done, and freezing or bouncing any track I'm currently not working on. I would say that the first generation of NDSP plugins weren't as good as the sounds you get from a Kemper or Fractal, but these latest certainly ones are. With Fortin Cali and Soldano SLO, I can get any sound I need, and use additional plugins like Valhalla if I want spacey reverbs and delays. Of course, if you wanna play live your only option is to bring a laptop, midi controller, and interface. Probably still more reliable than a tube amp. 😁

FM3: FM3 has phenomenal amp sounds and effects. To me, the user interface is a bit overly complicated, and using it without the desktop editor is kinda painful. Using it as a usb interface isn't an option for me because I don't want it to also be my main monitor interface, and there are latency issues when reamping. You could use spidf, or just go analog out into your audio interface, but AFAIK, you can't reamp without using USB audio.

For live, it's great if you just have some basic sounds you need to switch between. It's also extremely programmable, maybe to a fault if you don't like the default setup which I think takes some getting used to. If you need more than a few basic tones, you can use snapshots, but need to be creative with how you access all 8 of them. There are noticable switching gaps between certain tones in Snapshots.

All in all, it's great sounding but very quirky unit. It's easy to go down the rabbit hole and spend more time programming it than playing it. It's probably my least favorite of the 3, but I'm going to try building a pedalboard with it to see how it does in that situation.

Kemper Stage: sounds great with good profiles, and can sound terrible with bad profiles. I think this is the Achilles heel of the Kemper, and something they could easily fix by shipping it with a new robust collection of rigs. Built in effects sound great, but FM3 has a slight edge to me here Very easy to use. No USB interface, but they do a great job with all the routing and I/o options you might need when recording, like DI out and analog reamping.

Live, if you need more than basic clean / rhythm / lead, I think Kemper Stage has the edge because of the switch layout. Rig and preset switching is lightning fast. Only down side is you don't have many customization options for footswitch functions if you don't like the default setup.
 
Thanks a lot for the great reviews!

@marsonic you are confirming my suspicion that, more than anything, it's a matter of philosophy. Thanks!

@joshriggsFM3 totally agree with NDSP. The Cory Wong clean amps are out of this world. For the rest, I do use Amplitube 5 though (also a big fan). Wrt to re-amping I am fine going analog through my Scarlett 2i2. So I guess Kemper and FM3 would behave the same in that regard, right?
 
joshriggsFM3 said:
For live, it's great if you just have some basic sounds you need to switch between. It's also extremely programmable, maybe to a fault if you don't like the default setup which I think takes some getting used to. If you need more than a few basic tones, you can use snapshots, but need to be creative with how you access all 8 of them. There are noticable switching gaps between certain tones in Snapshots.
Click to expand...
Wrong technology... Fractal uses scenes, not snapshots. ;)
 
Owned a Kemper powered head for years. I sold it but NOT to buy a FM3. I only sold it as the head and remote were a lot to bring to rehearsals and gigs. I wanted something smaller and convenient.

That said....

The Kemper sounds and feels fantastic. And so does the FM3. Regardless of what the fanboys on this site may say, it's very easy to find free profiles that sound great. What most new Kemper owners don't get is that profiles can be tuned just like any modeler to sound great. The fact that Kemper gets knocks for "having to hunt forever for profiles that work" is either BS propagated by those that have never used one or those that have used one but never learned how to properly use the controls. It's as silly as someone saying a Fractal didn't work for them because none of the presets appealed to them...but they never bothered to adjust a single setting. I could make a Marshall profile sound like a Fender and vice versa. You just need to know how to use Kemper's controls.

Given that...

You should be able to get excellent sounds out of either a Kemper or a Fractal FM3. In my experience in owning the Kemper for years is that there are loads of free profiles that can readily be downloaded and adjusted to your taste. However, there is the learning curve of using the Kemper's controls - especially if you are used to other modelers. The Kemper controls have odd names "Definition" or "Clarity" which if you've used other modelers are unfamiliar. That's not to say that Fractal doesn't have a learning curve. If anything, the Kemper is in most ways a far more simple interface. But, they're very different.

If you're not a tweaker, the basic out-of-the-box presets on the Fractal are excellent. You should be able to unpack it and take it to a gig using one of the first 20 presets. Unfortunately, on the Kemper, there are a 1000+ profiles with no particular rhyme or reason to them. I found it far easier to download the free profiles from some of the top profile makers and tweak them to taste. While I paid for some profiles, in reality, I primarily used the free ones. Profiles are not some money pit as many make it out to be unless you are the type of person that treats Kemper profiles like Pokemon cards and needs to collect them all.

The bottom line is that both Kemper and Fractal sound great but their interface and workflow for using the units are vastly different. From your criteria, you'd be happy with either one.

While not everyone may have this luxury, it makes sense to try both and decide. You should try the Fractal last as it has a return window and you can only return a product once. So...get the Kemper first from one of the big retailers with a 45 return window....then try the Fractal.
 
Lance Holland said:
Owned a Kemper powered head for years. I sold it but NOT to buy a FM3. I only sold it as the head and remote were a lot to bring to rehearsals and gigs. I wanted something smaller and convenient.

That said....

The Kemper sounds and feels fantastic. And so does the FM3. Regardless of what the fanboys on this site may say, it's very easy to find free profiles that sound great. What most new Kemper owners don't get is that profiles can be tuned just like any modeler to sound great. The fact that Kemper gets knocks for "having to hunt forever for profiles that work" is either BS propagated by those that have never used one or those that have used one but never learned how to properly use the controls. It's as silly as someone saying a Fractal didn't work for them because none of the presets appealed to them...but they never bothered to adjust a single setting. I could make a Marshall profile sound like a Fender and vice versa. You just need to know how to use Kemper's controls.

Given that...

You should be able to get excellent sounds out of either a Kemper or a Fractal FM3. In my experience in owning the Kemper for years is that there are loads of free profiles that can readily be downloaded and adjusted to your taste. However, there is the learning curve of using the Kemper's controls - especially if you are used to other modelers. The Kemper controls have odd names "Definition" or "Clarity" which if you've used other modelers are unfamiliar. That's not to say that Fractal doesn't have a learning curve. If anything, the Kemper is in most ways a far more simple interface. But, they're very different.

If you're not a tweaker, the basic out-of-the-box presets on the Fractal are excellent. You should be able to unpack it and take it to a gig using one of the first 20 presets. Unfortunately, on the Kemper, there are a 1000+ profiles with no particular rhyme or reason to them. I found it far easier to download the free profiles from some of the top profile makers and tweak them to taste. While I paid for some profiles, in reality, I primarily used the free ones. Profiles are not some money pit as many make it out to be unless you are the type of person that treats Kemper profiles like Pokemon cards and needs to collect them all.

The bottom line is that both Kemper and Fractal sound great but their interface and workflow for using the units are vastly different. From your criteria, you'd be happy with either one.

While not everyone may have this luxury, it makes sense to try both and decide. You should try the Fractal last as it has a return window and you can only return a product once. So...get the Kemper first from one of the big retailers with a 45 return window....then try the Fractal.
Click to expand...
I will say that I did try to adjust the profiles I did play and wasn't as happy. And turning a Marshall into a Fender doesn't seem all that hard to me. Depending on which era you're talking about, they're really close already. But, the problem easily could have been on my end.

I'm also convinced that it's possible to get a good sound out of plugins. But having tried a half dozen or so...it's not in my skillset. Which I find weird because for studio stuff, I generally prefer plugin versions of hardware I've used, demo'd, or owned for a variety of reasons. In many cases, I prefer flat-out digital things to the plugin versions too. So, it isn't a digital thing...more so them just not working with how my head works for whatever reason.

I had better luck stacking up early copies of Fab Filter Saturn and Pro-Q when I needed to record direct than I did with actual guitar amp plugins...either stuff that was available at the time or more recent ones. Now, I have zero desire to try guitar amp plugins.
 
@marsonic - yes - a Marshall is essentially modded bassman. That's no big deal. It's more of a challenge to turn a blackface DR into a Marshall...but nobody wants to spend the time when you can start with some flavor of Marshall profile. (is the juice worth the squeeze?)

I guess my bottom line on this question is...all of these digital tools sound pretty f-ing great. It's whichever one you find makes sense for you to use and has the right feature set.
 
I've always felt Kemper had a distinct mid response compared to source. Also, if I play a note down low, some depth is missing from how the real amps typically react. Same happens when profiling fractal units, in my experience.

I did have Kemper for years and profiled a ton of amps. Found myself using ax8 more, axe fx 3 also. I now just own an fm3 and am more or less satisfied with it.

While I don't believe fractal units are "perfect" emulations of amps (how often do we see software revisions that alter fairly substantial, core things?), whatever inaccuracies exist are less bothersome to me compared to Kemper.

And this doesn't seem to be because I don't have tube amp references. I've had amps, and been in close reach of many. Kemper has its own thing, to me, and I don't like it as much.

That said: a massive reason I eventually settled more with fractal units is the ability to tweak my sounds more like the real world. Profiling stuff got tiring from some point. And it's not like I felt the results warrantied the effort when many of the same tweaks I'd do in the analog world work as well in fractal.

There are certain things that were cool with Kemper. I preferred the 4:1 noise gate to anything from fractal. I preferred how the unit looked compared to fractal units (not joking). And there were rare cases of profiles I liked that were difficult to emulate with fm3, even though the vast majority of the time I got close enough, if not better results (for me) than Kemper.

Also the method of profiling is appealing to me at times. If I had to choose an approach, modelling would be it. But if I do have a source tone dialed in it's not hard to profile it. And with Kemper these core tones don't change.

If you want new features without your core amp tones potentially changing, Kemper fits that well.
 
Last edited:
And there's also something to say about profiling multiple distorting stages. No problems with modelling -- because of how it works. At least with fractal.

With Kemper you may have big issues trying to profile a tone with, say, preamp distortion plus Power amp distortion. If I feel Kemper tends to have a "Ts-like" mid response, you may turn that into a cocked wah bananza, in many such cases. Not always, but often.

The usual response from people working for Kemper, in my experience, is to dismiss the need for such tones.

But there are people who do want them. I don't care if "nobody serious does that". And fractal performs better on that end, for me. It's been an advantage of fractal's approach, modelling amps throughout, compared to profiling process.
 
Not a great video, but I made this to illustrate the "multiple distorting stage" Kemper issue, years ago. With fm3, comparing to tube amps as well, I'm definitely happier with the results.

I don't mean to exagerate the need for dialing in Amps this way, btw. But it can be relevant for some people.

 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom