Mic preamp models vs Neve 1073

[randyman]

I’m going to risk a tangent that’s clearly off the Axe-centric nature of this thread … but if anyone here is following because their main interest is a mic pre, you might want to have a look at Neve’s new 88M two-channel front end.

Neve 88M Preamp

Mine arrived two months ago, and now everything in my project studio (except for the Axe-FX) goes through it … and everything benefits from that 88 Marinair transformer-coupled preamp sound. Very portable, and USB bus-driven, too … serious mojo.

 

[deathbyguitar]

If someone is wanting a particular preamp sound, why not just run through a plugin? Sonimus Burnley 73 for example is a great 1073 emulation but there are a million companies out there that make them. If this is for live use, I'd argue that no one will be able to tell the difference and it won't matter.

 

[∞Fractals]

If someone is wanting a particular preamp sound, why not just run through a plugin? Sonimus Burnley 73 for example is a great 1073 emulation but there are a million companies out there that make them. If this is for live use, I'd argue that no one will be able to tell the difference and it won't matter.

You’re probably correct. However.

This is the fractal audio systems forum and I imagine a lot of us here prefer their unique ability model analogue circuits w/ respective distortion/clipping from (tubes) in a unique/authentic and accessible manner.

To have that replicated across other platforms/devices would be killer IMO!

Just might not make a lot of business sense.

 

[trixdropd]

If someone is wanting a particular preamp sound, why not just run through a plugin? Sonimus Burnley 73 for example is a great 1073 emulation but there are a million companies out there that make them. If this is for live use, I'd argue that no one will be able to tell the difference and it won't matter.

He wants the mic pre available in the cab block like the other mic pre models. A plug-in has no way to be inserted there

 

[jamesmarshall]

I asked for this in the wish list and was basically told we already had it. After explaining that no we don't really have a 1073 or api, everyone basically jumped to a not important.
Although the modern preamp I can get very close to an API, but the transformer pre doesn't sound like any 1073 I have ever used, like not even the same ballpark, not tolerance differences.

 

[johnnyspys]

sorry if this has been mentioned but why not emulate a color box pedal or the API guitar pedal. Both have pre’s and both are an attempt to emulate that di to console sound as well as the preamp mojo. I record everything through my neve but have used API and SSL in the past. I can’t explain it but it does make a difference. Maybe something similar to a speaker IR, so you could have a cab and a second ir being a neve, api, or ssl pre?

 

[unix-guy]

sorry if this has been mentioned but why not emulate a color box pedal or the API guitar pedal. Both have pre’s and both are an attempt to emulate that di to console sound as well as the preamp mojo. I record everything through my neve but have used API and SSL in the past. I can’t explain it but it does make a difference. Maybe something similar to a speaker IR, so you could have a cab and a second ir being a neve, api, or ssl pre?

IRs don’t capture the nonlinear behaviour i.e. the distortion, which is a key component of the sound.

 

[Chromatizm]

I am quite confused to be honest with why we keep saying something sounds "exactly like on recording" if we agree that a missing component is a huge part of that sound.

 

[jamesmarshall]

I am quite confused to be honest with why we keep saying something sounds "exactly like on recording" if we agree that a missing component is a huge part of that sound.

It is all semantics at this point. Yes, you can get close to the sound of an album, however, there are some of us who have used certain pieces of gear their whole life and have a particular sound they use and have used, and maybe what is available in the AX3 does not get all the way there. For me, I have been using a 1073 or API or even a combo of the two as my mic preamps when recording guitars, for 40 years. Right now I run out1 into a pair of AML 1073s then into the burl B2 bomber into my Orion32 to record my guitar tones and use the AFX3 usb to get the DI tracks which I can then re-amp if I need to tweak something and go back through the 1073s to add some life. I have my own IRs where I mic'd my cab and have the 1073 and an API mixed into an IR, however as mentioned it does not grab the non-linear qualities in the IR that these are well known for.

If we could have a similar ability in the AFX3 itself it can put that little extra right over the top and get that tone I am used to closer to the 100% number. Right now I feel that without me taking the analog outs back through my 1073 and API preamps and the burl there is something still missing in the final product going to "tape" which I also had 1" 16 track tape machines (2) until about 4 years ago. I had clients still requesting the sound of tape and I loved it for my recordings. Now I can emulate that pretty close in the box, but still not 100% of the way, but good enough not to tell in a full mix that there is no tape machine on the recording.

I also mentioned earlier in the thread that I asked for similar in the wishlist. I did so because the transformer mic pre emulation does not sound anything similar to a 1073 the modern I can sort of get similar to the API, but not to where I like it. So if we never get this it is not a killer because, I have the real deals to add in those non-linear qualities on the way in and that gets me and my clients the tones that you do hear on every great record for the last 50 years without saying it is so close.

 

[danielworks]

Having preamp buttons assigned in PERFORM is very important to me. I have a perform preset that uses each knob in FX3 to adjust each parameter in the mic preamp (cab section). So I can judge with closed eyes, making judgements only based on what Im "feeling"

 

[touch33]

I run out1 into a pair of AML 1073s then into the burl B2 bomber into my Orion32 to record my guitar tones and use the AFX3 usb to get the DI tracks which I can then re-amp if I need to tweak something and go back through the 1073s to add some life.

Were I used to the no-doubt amazing coloration of running my AFX3 through approx. $3,500 worth of preamp/ADC – not to mention the Antelope kit (to convert to USB, I assume) and/or pushing thru tape prior to DAW – I, too, would sincerely want to have a convenient non-hardware replication option for live gigging, etc. But let's be honest – this is ultra-corksniffing territory we're traversing here (in my experience well beyond what even the "pro's pros" are doing in their live chains) and clearly outside of being an "add-on block" to what most consider to already be the world's best-sounding guitar processing environment.

"Code costs money..." (probably TONS of it in this proposed programming case) and it's hard to imagine Fractal sales shooting through the roof by adding what you seek.

 

[jamesmarshall]

Were I used to the no-doubt amazing coloration of running my AFX3 through approx. $3,500 worth of preamp/ADC – not to mention the Antelope kit (to convert to USB, I assume) and/or pushing thru tape prior to DAW – I, too, would sincerely want to have a convenient non-hardware replication option for live gigging, etc. But let's be honest – this is ultra-corksniffing territory we're traversing here (in my experience well beyond what even the "pro's pros" are doing in their live chains) and clearly outside of being an "add-on block" to what most consider to already be the world's best-sounding guitar processing environment.

"Code costs money..." (probably TONS of it in this proposed programming case) and it's hard to imagine Fractal sales shooting through the roof by adding what you seek.

You can call it cork-sniffing all you want, however, it does make a difference and that last 5% is still important. This device isn't only for producing live tones, you know. Some have it in professional studios that would like to quickly edit a client's tone without having to patch in a mic pre or 2 and mess with it. And besides Like I said it is all semantics at this point. Yes I have plenty of self shot IRs with said preamps but again, non-linear parts do not sit in an IR,

However, I find the "It is going to cost money" argument a little B.S. Yes of course these guys get paid to do their thing so there is no question of there being a cost. The base is already there and I and others are not asking for anything new, just a new algorithm for these preamps. I find this argument hilarious at the same time since it seems no issue when everyone wants a new amp in here and Cliff has to create a new algorithm for it and no one mentions how it will cost money or complain about it.

 

[York Audio]

If an IR is captured through a 1073, that color is already baked into the IR. An accurate 1073 preamp in the cab block would only work if the mic pre used for the IR was transparent and neutral, otherwise it’s just stacking preamp color on top of preamp color.

I’m working with a highly reputable artist at the moment who’s known for his tone and ridiculously meticulous ear. He sent me his cab, I captured IRs using the same mic preamp he uses, and he called me flipping out because he couldn’t hear a difference when A/B’ing his real cab mic’d up through this mic pre vs the IR… to the point that it’s literally changing where he’s buying a new house because now he doesn’t have to worry about finding a place where he can get away with cranking a Plexi.

Maybe if the mic pre is pushed REALLY hard you might be able to hear a difference, but from my testing and feedback from artist clients, a mic pre at normal settings sounds the same on a live cab as it does in an IR.

 

[Fab8040]

If an IR is captured through a 1073, that color is already baked into the IR. An accurate 1073 preamp in the cab block would only work if the mic pre used for the IR was transparent and neutral, otherwise it’s just stacking preamp color on top of preamp color.

I’m working with a highly reputable artist at the moment who’s known for his tone and ridiculously meticulous ear. He sent me his cab, I captured IRs using the same mic preamp he uses, and he called me flipping out because he couldn’t hear a difference when A/B’ing his real cab mic’d up through this mic pre vs the IR… to the point that it’s literally changing where he’s buying a new house because now he doesn’t have to worry about finding a place where he can get away with cranking a Plexi.

Maybe if the mic pre is pushed REALLY hard you might be able to hear a difference, but from my testing and feedback from artist clients, a mic pre at normal settings sounds the same on a live cab as it does in an IR.

So it would be great to know the signal path of the recording process of the ir

 

[touch33]

So it would be great to know the signal path of the recording process of the ir

..and the room size and the room acoustic character and the position of the cab in the room and its height above the floor and the mic type/pattern/pad settings and the mic position on the cab and the angle of the mic and the cable type(s) and and and and ... you get the point. It's most often a summation of ALL of those things (and possibly more) – PLUS the skill of the person doing the capture – that make it all work. FWIW, it's also why I usually rely on 3rd party vendors like the pros at AustinBuddy/York/ML to do that voodoo that only they do.

 

[jamesmarshall]

If an IR is captured through a 1073, that color is already baked into the IR. An accurate 1073 preamp in the cab block would only work if the mic pre used for the IR was transparent and neutral, otherwise it’s just stacking preamp color on top of preamp color.

I’m working with a highly reputable artist at the moment who’s known for his tone and ridiculously meticulous ear. He sent me his cab, I captured IRs using the same mic preamp he uses, and he called me flipping out because he couldn’t hear a difference when A/B’ing his real cab mic’d up through this mic pre vs the IR… to the point that it’s literally changing where he’s buying a new house because now he doesn’t have to worry about finding a place where he can get away with cranking a Plexi.

Maybe if the mic pre is pushed REALLY hard you might be able to hear a difference, but from my testing and feedback from artist clients, a mic pre at normal settings sounds the same on a live cab as it does in an IR.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

You hit the nail on the head, Justin!

Having the emulation in the AX3 for IRs captured with neutral premps could make for a great quick tweak if the IR generally fits better but needs a little something. I could throw one of my IRs shot with a 1073 or API or maybe I just use one shot with the preamp in my Neotek console and use an emulation in the AX3. I might get a little less of the flavor of the preamp since the 1073 emulation could be dialed back slightly and it may fit better in the perticular mix than say the ones shot with a 1073 or Api.

Just thinking that not everyone has the ability to do these things with the real deal and there are plenty of IRs shot with neutral preamps.

 

[York Audio]

So it would be great to know the signal path of the recording process of the ir

In all honesty, you would hear a bigger difference moving a microphone 1/4” than comparing the same mic position through a 1073/API/Chandler/etc. The mic position is king… everything else is icing on the cake.

The signal chain can change depending on the mic being used, plus, most IR makers prefer to keep their signal chains secret to avoid others from trying to replicate their work.

I’ve got six different types of mic pres in my studio. It might be fun to shoot the same mic position with all six of them and see if anyone has a preference or can guess what any of them are just by playing through them.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

You hit the nail on the head, Justin!

Having the emulation in the AX3 for IRs captured with neutral premps could make for a great quick tweak if the IR generally fits better but needs a little something. I could throw one of my IRs shot with a 1073 or API or maybe I just use one shot with the preamp in my Neotek console and use an emulation in the AX3. I might get a little less of the flavor of the preamp since the 1073 emulation could be dialed back slightly and it may fit better in the perticular mix than say the ones shot with a 1073 or Api.

Just thinking that not everyone has the ability to do these things with the real deal and there are plenty of IRs shot with neutral preamps.

It could work if the IRs were designed to be colorless… like how modeling microphones and headphones are designed to be ultra linear. Which means they would sound pretty sterile and uninspiring unless a preamp model was being used. As far as I know, Fractal is the only company offering mic pre models, so it might be hard finding IRs for such a specific use case. Having said that, I’ll include an IR with a mic pre like that if I end up doing the test I mentioned above.

When you support an IR maker, you’re essentially hiring them as your engineer. Let them choose the mic selection, placements, and outboard gear for you so all you have to do is enjoy playing your guitar.

 

[jamesmarshall]

It could work if the IRs were designed to be colorless… like how modeling microphones and headphones are designed to be ultra linear. Which means they would sound pretty sterile and uninspiring unless a preamp model was being used. As far as I know, Fractal is the only company offering mic pre models, so it might be hard finding IRs for such a specific use case. Having said that, I’ll include an IR with a mic pre like that if I end up doing the test I mentioned above.

When you support an IR maker, you’re essentially hiring them as your engineer. Let them choose the mic selection, placements, and outboard gear for you so all you have to do is enjoy playing your guitar.

Yes totally agree, but very neutral pre amps do pretty well, for my needs as long as no eq and kept below the harmonic distortion and compression threshold.

And yes that's exactly why people buy IRs. I have a ton of your IRs as well, but switching from musician to engineer myself I like options and have some cabs no one else might ever use but end up loving when I put them in a mix (my signature crate cabs with V30 65s, from the 80s, for example). I would love the IRs shot with a very neutral preamp and throw a 1073 or API on the end of the chain pushed a little bit going into my burl, would probably make for a great Metal recording. Or maybe the same IR through a UA610 and and SSL comp for a clean jangly guitar tone could work well in a mix.

 

[touch33]

When you support an IR maker, you’re essentially hiring them as your engineer. Let them choose the mic selection, placements, and outboard gear for you so all you have to do is enjoy playing your guitar.

You’ve got me thinking — back in my studio days I had a remote-control mic stand that would allow me to move a mic up/down/left/right/in/out in front of a cab. I would fiddle about from the control room until I heard the sound I was looking for.

When you’re creating your (admittedly terrific) IR’s, what do YOU look for — and finally decide on for publication?

 

[Fab8040]

In all honesty, you would hear a bigger difference moving a microphone 1/4” than comparing the same mic position through a 1073/API/Chandler/etc. The mic position is king… everything else is icing on the cake.

The signal chain can change depending on the mic being used, plus, most IR makers prefer to keep their signal chains secret to avoid others from trying to replicate their work.

I’ve got six different types of mic pres in my studio. It might be fun to shoot the same mic position with all six of them and see if anyone has a preference or can guess what any of them are just by playing through them.


It could work if the IRs were designed to be colorless… like how modeling microphones and headphones are designed to be ultra linear. Which means they would sound pretty sterile and uninspiring unless a preamp model was being used. As far as I know, Fractal is the only company offering mic pre models, so it might be hard finding IRs for such a specific use case. Having said that, I’ll include an IR with a mic pre like that if I end up doing the test I mentioned above.

When you support an IR maker, you’re essentially hiring them as your engineer. Let them choose the mic selection, placements, and outboard gear for you so all you have to do is enjoy playing your guitar.

Yeah but i was asking because for the first time i ve tried to on the mic preamp in the cab block and the sound improves quite enough especially in the high quality mode..

You’ve got me thinking — back in my studio days I had a remote-control mic stand that would allow me to move a mic up/down/left/right/in/out in front of a cab. I would fiddle about from the control room until I heard the sound I was looking for.

When you’re creating your (admittedly terrific) IR’s, what do YOU look for — and finally decide on for publication?

In all honesty, you would hear a bigger difference moving a microphone 1/4” than comparing the same mic position through a 1073/API/Chandler/etc. The mic position is king… everything else is icing on the cake.

The signal chain can change depending on the mic being used, plus, most IR makers prefer to keep their signal chains secret to avoid others from trying to replicate their work.

I’ve got six different types of mic pres in my studio. It might be fun to shoot the same mic position with all six of them and see if anyone has a preference or can guess what any of them are just by playing through them.


It could work if the IRs were designed to be colorless… like how modeling microphones and headphones are designed to be ultra linear. Which means they would sound pretty sterile and uninspiring unless a preamp model was being used. As far as I know, Fractal is the only company offering mic pre models, so it might be hard finding IRs for such a specific use case. Having said that, I’ll include an IR with a mic pre like that if I end up doing the test I mentioned above.

When you support an IR maker, you’re essentially hiring them as your engineer. Let them choose the mic selection, placements, and outboard gear for you so all you have to do is enjoy playing your guitar.

Yeah but i was asking because for the first time i ve tried to on the mic preamp in the cab block and the sound improves quite enough especially in the high quality mode..