Measuring cab resonant frequency

lastcaress83

Inspired
Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere. I’m trying to measure the resonant frequency of my cab. To do this I’ve been using the synth block as directed here: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...sonant_frequency_with_a_solid-state_amplifier
Along with a db meter app on my iphone to find the loudest peak. Signal chain is
AFIII->Matrix GT1000fx->cab

This has proven pretty effective but a thought occurred to me: Would this be more accurate using a tube power section and feeding the Axe FX synth into the effects loop? My thinking is that, since the tube amp is reacting to the cabs impedance curve, it will accentuate those resonant points more than a solid state amp will. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome, thanks!
 
Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere. I’m trying to measure the resonant frequency of my cab. To do this I’ve been using the synth block as directed here: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...sonant_frequency_with_a_solid-state_amplifier
Along with a db meter app on my iphone to find the loudest peak. Signal chain is
AFIII->Matrix GT1000fx->cab

This has proven pretty effective but a thought occurred to me: Would this be more accurate using a tube power section and feeding the Axe FX synth into the effects loop? My thinking is that, since the tube amp is reacting to the cabs impedance curve, it will accentuate those resonant points more than a solid state amp will. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome, thanks!
I would measure it for the exact setup you plan on using. Just my opinion…
 
That's an interesting thought (same setup here MatrixGt1k > Mesa Cabs). Using the synth/rattle method I was not able to accurately pinpoint the RF of my cabs (just could not hear/feel anything that particular popping out). Will try testing again thru the return of one of my tube heads. Logically, I would expect the RF to pop out more easily via the synth test thru a tube amp since, as you mention, the tube head should be reacting automatically to the cab.
 
That's an interesting thought (same setup here MatrixGt1k > Mesa Cabs). Using the synth/rattle method I was not able to accurately pinpoint the RF of my cabs (just could not hear/feel anything that particular popping out). Will try testing again thru the return of one of my tube heads. Logically, I would expect the RF to pop out more easily via the synth test thru a tube amp since, as you mention, the tube head should be reacting automatically to the cab.
I use an app called Decibel X and, although I can’t hear the difference in volume, this app reads in 1/10th of a DB and was able to consistently display reliable difference in volume with frequency changes of 1-2 Hz so I could pinpoint the peak (given, this was with the solid state Matrix amp so who knows if its the real impedance peak or not).
Using the app, I got a significantly different reading than I did using the cab rattle method or just my ears and it was a difference for the better.
I’m not saying those methods are wrong and mine is right, just that I liked that resonant peak more with this cab and it sounded more natural. Let me know your results!
 
Someone correct me if I’m wrong

but I believe a speaker impedance’s low resonant frequency is not the same as a cabinet’s low resonant frequency

Speaker impedance resonances are electric
Cabinet resonances are physical
But they do affect each other when measuring

Again need someone to check this
 
Someone correct me if I’m wrong

but I believe a speaker impedance’s low resonant frequency is not the same as a cabinet’s low resonant frequency

Speaker impedance resonances are electric
Cabinet resonances are physical
But they do affect each other when measuring

Again need someone to check this
But don't you adjust the impedance curve low frequency resonance to compensate for the cabs measured low frequency resonance? Otherwise, what are you doing with the information gained by finding the cabs resonant frequency?

Edit:
The instructions linked in my above post state that after finding your cabs low resonant frequency you should: "set the Amp block's Low Frequency Resonance value to match"

Doesn't that control adjust the impedance curve low frequency resonance?
 
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But don't you adjust the impedance curve low frequency resonance to compensate for the cabs measured low frequency resonance? Otherwise, what are you doing with the information gained by finding the cabs resonant frequency?

Edit:
The instructions linked in my above post state that after finding your cabs low resonant frequency you should: "set the Amp block's Low Frequency Resonance value to match"

Doesn't that control adjust the impedance curve low frequency resonance?
Not too knowledgeable on this subject but found this to help
This post is aimed at those who use a solid-state power amp into a conventional guitar cab.

As is described in the post "About Speaker LF Resonance" a guitar cabinet has an impedance resonance in the low frequencies. This typically falls in the range of 50 to 100 Hz.

A tube amp, being essentially a current source, will have a voltage output that follows the impedance curve. Speakers, being electromotive devices, respond to applied electromotive force (EMF) which we know as voltage.

A solid-state power amp is a voltage amplifier and, hence, will not be influenced by the impedance of the speaker.

When using a solid-state power amp into a conventional guitar cabinet the experience will be different if the simulated speaker in the Axe-Fx II is not adjusted to match the actual speaker. Whether or not this is important is up to the individual but I imagine a lot of the posts about "in-the-room using power amp and cab is not the same" are due to this. Unfortunately the Axe-Fx II cannot measure the speaker impedance characteristics as it is not directly connected to the speaker. No device can measure the speaker impedance without being directly connected to the speaker, despite what their marketing claims may infer (cough, ahem...), since impedance is, by definition, V/I and we cannot measure these unless connected to the speaker terminals.

The only truly accurate way to set the simulated speaker is to measure the speaker being used with an impedance measuring device. These can be had relatively inexpensively in the form of the Woofer Tester 3 (from Dayton Audio IIRC). You can also make your own using a small value resistor (0.1 ohms or so) in series with you power amp and measure the voltage across the resistor.

The next best method would be to estimate the impedance using published data from the speaker manufacturer. If the make and model are known the data may be available. Add approximately 10% to the published resonance frequency if the speaker is in a sealed box.

The worst method, and the subject of some contention, is finding the resonance by "feel". No power amp has perfect damping. If you put a sine wave (use the Synth block) into the speaker you may be able to observe or feel the resonant frequency. The cone will have increased excursion at this frequency. Of course you may just be feeling the room resonance. I have used this technique successfully on several speakers but it takes practice. The main drawback is that the magnitude of the resonance is unknown.

The Axe-Fx II's Low Res parameter is displayed in dimensionless units from 0 to 10. Each unit corresponds to 2.4 dB of impedance "gain". We define this as a gain since the our current source power amp will experience a voltage gain. This is relative to the DC resistance of the speaker. For example, if the speaker's resistance is 6 ohms and the impedance at resonance is 60 ohms then our impedance gain would be 20*log10(60/6) = 20 dB. Dividing by 2.4 gives a Low Res value of 8.3. Since a tube amp isn't a perfect current source these values should be reduced slightly. The exact value of the Q isn't too important. About 2.0 is a good starting point. Adjust up or down to taste. If you are anal more information is in the aforementioned post about deriving the value of Q.

Once the simulated speaker is set correctly you may notice a difference in low-frequency behavior and pick attack.
 
Not too knowledgeable on this subject but found this to help
since I had difficulty with the rattle test, I used method 2 described there to get a best guess (lots in the wiki on this also)

So in my case using Matrix GT1000Fx to 2x112 Cabs with 60W 8Ohm V30s w RF=75hz, DC resistance=7.3Ohm, I determined:
  • Low Freq =75+10% = 82.5Hz,
  • LF Reso = 20*log10(82.5/7.3) / 2.4 = 8.8
  • HF Q = ? - I picked 2 which the wiki said is common.
  • Front Porting in my Cabs Influence = ? (dunno - maybe the ports throw everything out the window)
  • HF Freq / HF Reso / HF Slope = ? (no idea how to determine - I use the same numbers as the 1x12 V30 stock IC).
 
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Thanks for sharing this info.

What if we are using a 2x12 cab with two different speakers or two 1x12 cabs one with a Celestion V30 (Mesa OEM spec) and other with a Creamback 75H? Both speakers have a Resonance frequency of 75Hz but different DC resistance values.

I'm running my Fm3 with a Seymour Duncan PS170 poweramp.
 
Thanks for the reply @DLC86. I never used REW nor DATS.
I believe when you mention REW you are talking about this measurement software: https://www.roomeqwizard.com
What else is needed in terms of hardware? A microphone? And what's the procedure? Thanks again :)

This is what is described in Fractal Wiki:
8.5 - Finding the resonant frequency with a solid-state amplifier
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...sonant_frequency_with_a_solid-state_amplifier
Here are the instructions to do it with REW
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html

There was a thread about this but it seems it's been deleted for some reason
 
@DLC86 I seem to remember you have used this method a few times. Do you use a power amp or just a headphone output as mentioned in the article? Will the cab resonance be measured, of the cab is not really excited?
 
@DLC86 I seem to remember you have used this method a few times. Do you use a power amp or just a headphone output as mentioned in the article? Will the cab resonance be measured, of the cab is not really excited?
I used the headphone output of the Axe FX and the impedance curve is properly measured, just pay attention to not set the output knob too high or you'll get distortion. Btw, using a headphone out to drive a cab produces more volume than you'd expect.

During my first tests I also realized the curve is pretty sensitive to the room reflections and external noise in general (a speaker basically can also work as a mic), in fact I could see little bumps along the curve that changed depending on the position of the cab within the room.
 
I used the headphone output of the Axe FX and the impedance curve is properly measured, just pay attention to not set the output knob too high or you'll get distortion. Btw, using a headphone out to drive a cab produces more volume than you'd expect.

During my first tests I also realized the curve is pretty sensitive to the room reflections and external noise in general (a speaker basically can also work as a mic), in fact I could see little bumps along the curve that changed depending on the position of the cab within the room.
Sorry to bother you again, but did you use a 100 ohm resistor as they suggest in the article? Any particular power rating? I imagine a 1W rating is sufficient?
 
Sorry to bother you again, but did you use a 100 ohm resistor as they suggest in the article? Any particular power rating? I imagine a 1W rating is sufficient?
Yep, 100 ohm resistor (which turned out to be 99.something, measure it with an accurate multimeter if you can) rated for 1/4 W iirc
 
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