Marshall Jubilee - A Long Work In Progress

Fro

Experienced
So, I’m going to try to keep this short and to the point, but I’m sure that won’t happen.

I absolutely love my Axe Fx Standard, and also hate it with a passion. With that said, it’s been a main part of my rig since I got it, and I honestly don’t see it going away anytime soon.

My mainstay amp is a Marshall Jubilee 2550. For those of you keeping score, I run Presence 0, Bass 10, Mid 6, High 2.5, Output Master 5, Lead Master 5, Input Gain 3, no Rhythm clip and running at 50 watts. It’s set darker than most would run it because I go through a Marshal Jubilee 2x12. I don’t recall if it’s G12-70’s or G12-75’s. My guitar is a 70’s something Tele Custom. Someone replaced the neck pickup with a Seymour Duncan, and I don’t know what it is. The bridge pickup is a Dimarzio Chopper I wired parallel. I usually run both pickups for most of my sounds.

My alternate setup is a rather large pedal board into a Fender Blues Deville, but that is another story.

I have used the Axe Fx as FX only before both amps, FRFR into a QSC K10, straight to a computer or mixer with various headphones, near field monitors, through an ART SLA-1 with a 4x12 or a 2x12, you name it. I settled on a 4-cable method with the Jubilee. I must add that my regular usage at this point is playing live with a cover band, mostly classic and new rock. What I like most about the Jubilee vs most Marshalls are the tone controls. The Bass control adds richness without getting muddy, and the highs are smoother, provided that you keep the presence low. I could never accomplish the same thing with my Dual Super Lead, nor the JCM800.

I finally had the time and patience to sit down with the Axe Fx since the release of 10.03. What I have found is that it is a big improvement for the sound I am going for, and I’m finally able to get close. With most Marshal sims, I have a big struggle with getting this warm and big bottom while keeping the definition. It’s something I’ve never fought with on the Jubilee. Adding the Bright boost on the sim added a characteristic I really needed, but it was way too harsh and unnatural. The Marsha BE sim got me closer when 10 first came out, but it wasn’t until the high frequency change in 10.03 that I felt I had a chance.

So what you have here is a recording of 2 takes back to back. The first is the 4-cable method with the Jubilee. The only thing the Axe Fx is really doing in this clip is adding a tinge of verb and delay. Nothing else. I’m using a Hughes and Kettner Red Box Mark II directly into a Zoom H4N. The second half of the clip is just the Axe Fx running straight into the Zoom H4N. If all goes well, I will include the patches.

What I ended up doing was turning the Bright switch on, keeping the presence off (at noon) and then bringing the High Cut way down. I’m not sure I have this balance right just yet. No matter how I adjusted the Low Cut in combination with the Bass control, the bottom end was always missing. So I added a PEQ and brought up 100-ish. If you look at the patch, you’ll notice I have it set up to send the FX Loop to the power amp/2x12 at Output 2 for the stage, and Output 1 is for FOH. I put a separate PEQ on each to adjust as needed. I ended up changing the EQ for output 1 quite a bit, but never really settling on anything. As is usually the case, I’m never happy with the sound coming out of both Output 1 and Output 2. It’s usually one or the other.

The cab sims are Redwirez. It’s a Scott Peterson recipe, I believe. I got most of my tips from him and Yek. The way the verb and delay are set up is a variation from one of them as well, although I scaled it way back. I’m still trying to find it’s happy place.

The Jube_4Cable patch is the one set up to use the pre-amp and power amp of the Jubilee. The Jubilee_Wannabe is for the ART SLA-1 with 2x12 cab.

Points of interest: I use a Yamaha MFC10 foot controller. The expression pedal on the board is assigned to the wah, plus it’s set to kick in additional volume and delay. I have a second pedal attached to the MFC10 for volume. I changed the curve on the volume so that it his the lower gain quicker.

So here it is, my first official post, with first official audio clip and patches to boot. I’ll take any and all critcism.

http://soundcloud.com/fromas/jubilee-test-axe-fx
 

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They sound totally different...? The Jubilee is way brighter (and sounds much better to me in this case). Do you have cab sims on going into the 2*12"?
 
I think that they both sounded very similar. The Jubilee clip sounds brighter. The Axe Fx clip has more pronounced low end. But, the meat and potatoes of the tone sounds very similar to me. If you cut some low and add some high on the Axe FX patch, I bet you could easily nail it. Either that, or alter your Redwirez recipe to something slightly brighter that doesn't highlight as much bottom. Essentially, though, I disagree with the last reply that said that they sound totally different. Some quick EQ'ing or altering of the cabinet IR recipe could easily get you there.

...and, we're noticing these slight differences while given the opportunity to do an immediate side-by-side comparison. If you played lots of live shows to the same audience with the Jubilee and then one time showed up with that Axe FX sound, I'll bet that nobody would ever mention that you sounded different. And, without being able to physically see a different looking rig on stage, I would bet that nobody would notice at all. Regardless, I would be stunned if you couldn't get even closer, anyway.
 
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To me the Axe-Fx sounds slightly nasal in comparison to the real thing early on and strangely enough it's the other way around towards the end.

I only hear this jumping around going right from Marshall to Axe at matching points in the clip. If I listen to it striaght through they are close enough that it sounds like you are playing the same thing twice in a row. In other words - close enough for me!
 
Thanks. This is something I’ve really been struggling with. And my ears can get fatigued pretty quickly. Then I find myself adjusting things when I shouldn’t be.

I think what I may do is record both of these going through the 2x12 with a 57 and compare them like I did with the direct signals. Listen on several different speakers plus headphones, etc. If I feel like I’m still as close as I thought I was originally, moving on to cab sims makes sense. I think that’s why I struggled with the PEQ. The frequency I was trying to either cut or boost may not have been there with the recipe I was using. Now I just need to remember which recipe it was I used in the first place. I know it’s on the forum here somewhere…

Then again, why complicate it with a recipe. Maybe I’ll just try a 57 one inch off the speaker or something. Wouldn’t that just be crazy?

I would agree too with saying it has a slight nasally sound. Let’s see if the cab sim fixes that. Easy enough to try thanks to a wonderfully designed product!

If I do record the actual cab, I’ll post that too.
 
The Jubilee clip sounds brighter. The Axe Fx clip has more pronounced low end. But, the meat and potatoes of the tone sounds very similar to me. If you cut some low and add some high on the Axe FX patch, I bet you could easily nail it.

This. The AxeFx needs a little more brightness and crunch. It's most notable right at the beginning rhythm part to me. But, I agree with browlett, the differences don't sound like anything that couldn't be dialed in with a little more work.
 
So, I’m going to try to keep this short and to the point, but I’m sure that won’t happen.

I absolutely love my Axe Fx Standard, and also hate it with a passion. With that said, it’s been a main part of my rig since I got it, and I honestly don’t see it going away anytime soon.

My mainstay amp is a Marshall Jubilee 2550. For those of you keeping score, I run Presence 0, Bass 10, Mid 6, High 2.5, Output Master 5, Lead Master 5, Input Gain 3, no Rhythm clip and running at 50 watts. It’s set darker than most would run it because I go through a Marshal Jubilee 2x12. I don’t recall if it’s G12-70’s or G12-75’s. My guitar is a 70’s something Tele Custom. Someone replaced the neck pickup with a Seymour Duncan, and I don’t know what it is. The bridge pickup is a Dimarzio Chopper I wired parallel. I usually run both pickups for most of my sounds.

My alternate setup is a rather large pedal board into a Fender Blues Deville, but that is another story.

I have used the Axe Fx as FX only before both amps, FRFR into a QSC K10, straight to a computer or mixer with various headphones, near field monitors, through an ART SLA-1 with a 4x12 or a 2x12, you name it. I settled on a 4-cable method with the Jubilee. I must add that my regular usage at this point is playing live with a cover band, mostly classic and new rock. What I like most about the Jubilee vs most Marshalls are the tone controls. The Bass control adds richness without getting muddy, and the highs are smoother, provided that you keep the presence low. I could never accomplish the same thing with my Dual Super Lead, nor the JCM800.

I finally had the time and patience to sit down with the Axe Fx since the release of 10.03. What I have found is that it is a big improvement for the sound I am going for, and I’m finally able to get close. With most Marshal sims, I have a big struggle with getting this warm and big bottom while keeping the definition. It’s something I’ve never fought with on the Jubilee. Adding the Bright boost on the sim added a characteristic I really needed, but it was way too harsh and unnatural. The Marsha BE sim got me closer when 10 first came out, but it wasn’t until the high frequency change in 10.03 that I felt I had a chance.

So what you have here is a recording of 2 takes back to back. The first is the 4-cable method with the Jubilee. The only thing the Axe Fx is really doing in this clip is adding a tinge of verb and delay. Nothing else. I’m using a Hughes and Kettner Red Box Mark II directly into a Zoom H4N. The second half of the clip is just the Axe Fx running straight into the Zoom H4N. If all goes well, I will include the patches.

What I ended up doing was turning the Bright switch on, keeping the presence off (at noon) and then bringing the High Cut way down. I’m not sure I have this balance right just yet. No matter how I adjusted the Low Cut in combination with the Bass control, the bottom end was always missing. So I added a PEQ and brought up 100-ish. If you look at the patch, you’ll notice I have it set up to send the FX Loop to the power amp/2x12 at Output 2 for the stage, and Output 1 is for FOH. I put a separate PEQ on each to adjust as needed. I ended up changing the EQ for output 1 quite a bit, but never really settling on anything. As is usually the case, I’m never happy with the sound coming out of both Output 1 and Output 2. It’s usually one or the other.

The cab sims are Redwirez. It’s a Scott Peterson recipe, I believe. I got most of my tips from him and Yek. The way the verb and delay are set up is a variation from one of them as well, although I scaled it way back. I’m still trying to find it’s happy place.

The Jube_4Cable patch is the one set up to use the pre-amp and power amp of the Jubilee. The Jubilee_Wannabe is for the ART SLA-1 with 2x12 cab.

Points of interest: I use a Yamaha MFC10 foot controller. The expression pedal on the board is assigned to the wah, plus it’s set to kick in additional volume and delay. I have a second pedal attached to the MFC10 for volume. I changed the curve on the volume so that it his the lower gain quicker.

So here it is, my first official post, with first official audio clip and patches to boot. I’ll take any and all critcism.

http://soundcloud.com/fromas/jubilee-test-axe-fx

Try a different Red Wire IR or mix with the close mic 57 backed off. I think the one you are using from me would be at 2" off-axis cap-edge. Change that to 4". You'll be struck by how much the bass response changes. IMHO, and I stress how important this is, the biggest 'issue' with the stock IR's and the Red Wire are the proximity effect in regards to where you use them. Always remember too, that it's not an issue, unless it is an issue for you.

IMHO, the cab sim is AS important or even MORESO than anything else you use in your signal chain - guitar and amp included. It is THAT important to get it right. Feel free to disagree with me, but I am right. (sorry!)

To make things 'brighter' cut bass INSTEAD of boosting treble. And do it the natural way, through the IR. That cuts out a lot of the PEQ and low cut and all that. Use those to micro adjust, not do the major surgery for the best results.

Try this instead:

Greenback Ref Mix9

Marshall1960A-G12Ms-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-4in.wav,0.85
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.05
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025
 
Thanks everyone for chiming in. This forum is always helpful.

Thanks Scott for the suggested mix. If anything, it will give me another good reference point for more experimenting. I’m sure it will sound good. I’ll also keep in mind how it can be changed to suit my taste. And your right, the cab sim is very important. Admittedly, I just went with the one I knew that I liked from previous use and didn’t give any thought to how that could be changed to get me closer. I went back and look at my notes. All I had written down was Scott’s Marshall, so it’s probably what your thinking. I’m anxious to try this one out. Luckily, all of my live sounds are based off of this one core patch, i.e. I never change amp sims (Except for one clean patch). So I can just load up all of the user spots and go to town until I find the right one.

Yeah, I know I’m knit picking at this point. But why not if I have the tools to be picky with? Other than driving myself crazy, of course. But, I’m having fun. So, lot’s to do tonight. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks.
 
I listened again on my studio speakers (K+H O300D) and the dfference is smaller than my first listen on my MacBook Pro's internal speakers.
The main difference lies in the main frequency spectrum of the small laptop speakers, so that exaggerates it, but it's helpful to check there to get those frequencies right...
 
Don’t worry Merlin17, I haven’t completely discounted your opinion either. It’s the old Buck Owens mixing theory; it should still sound good on a cheap pair of speakers. Your right, sometimes that will accentuate the differences I’m trying to uncover and help fix them. Unfortunately, part of what usually burns out my ears out is trying to listen to enough different speaker combinations to cover all of my bases. That’s why it helps me to get everyone else’s opinion. Thanks to everyone’s help, I think I’ll get there.
 
Thanks everyone for chiming in. This forum is always helpful.

Thanks Scott for the suggested mix. If anything, it will give me another good reference point for more experimenting. I’m sure it will sound good. I’ll also keep in mind how it can be changed to suit my taste. And your right, the cab sim is very important. Admittedly, I just went with the one I knew that I liked from previous use and didn’t give any thought to how that could be changed to get me closer. I went back and look at my notes. All I had written down was Scott’s Marshall, so it’s probably what your thinking. I’m anxious to try this one out. Luckily, all of my live sounds are based off of this one core patch, i.e. I never change amp sims (Except for one clean patch). So I can just load up all of the user spots and go to town until I find the right one.

Yeah, I know I’m knit picking at this point. But why not if I have the tools to be picky with? Other than driving myself crazy, of course. But, I’m having fun. So, lot’s to do tonight. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks.

Picking nits with the Axe-FX is where you can make magic. That's the fun stuff.

Try that mix recipe in the RedWire IR-Mixer. Working for an intense period with the OwnHammer IR's had me revisit the RedWire IR's with a new ear and taking my own advice - "use your ears, instead of your eyes" yielded "Ref Mix9" and I'll tell you... it's a very good, tight low end with a sweet top and detailed 'haunting mids' (that's an in-joke). :D Seriously. I really like the OwnHammer, but not being able to adjust them (I bought the syx file versions from them) drove my control freak personality insane. The OwnHammer's have a very distinctly tight lower end with almost zero proximity effect in most of them; though they are harder in the upper mids than I generally prefer. So I took my working mix (which was 'ref mix4') and worked at it. This current mix addresses almost every need/want/desire I've wanted from that particular specific cab. The formula changes per each cab and gets further murky when you start mixing speakers, but I'm a long way down the road working with this sort of construct and VERY happy at this juncture. This current version holds well at lower volumes and just explodes (nicely) at stage volumes.

Try it, and let me know if it helps. Other cabs need different treatments - just like in the 'real' analog world.
 
The Jubilee sounds tighter to me! But this dosen't mean you can't get the Axe there! I agree with Scott, you should cut the bass and try some other IR. The problem is not the axe itself but the cab sims, I think no technology is ever gonna be able to replicate the complexity of a guitar cab pushing air then been captured by whatever mic. You should do another clip using the axe fx with the actual real cab you used to record the Jubilee, than we could really do an A/B test for the AMPS!
 
To me the real Jubilee was a lot ballsier. The overall tone was the same though. Maybe you should try a different cabinet on the Axe-Fx since that one isn't letting enough low freqs through. Also the Axe-Fx sounded hairy and brown when compared to the real thing. I get this a lot too... Anyways the overall tone was very similar. Maybe lower the SAG as low as possible to add some dynamics. Maybe choosing "none" as the microphone to give more low end. You are very close already.
 
Try a different Red Wire IR or mix with the close mic 57 backed off. I think the one you are using from me would be at 2" off-axis cap-edge. Change that to 4". You'll be struck by how much the bass response changes. IMHO, and I stress how important this is, the biggest 'issue' with the stock IR's and the Red Wire are the proximity effect in regards to where you use them.

Like it!
For me the 3" is even just a little bit better "in balance".
 
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For my jubilee sounds,i use the 800 sim with tone location END.

Jubilee have the eq in the power amp,not in the preamp!


Try it!

killer jubilee sound!

Cheers!
 
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