Making the AXE FX Sound Even Better Live!!!

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playingitloud

Inspired
Hello Everyone,

I believe this is my first post here but I have enjoyed cruising the forum thread's in the past and reading through what has been posted there (a lot of useful discussions/information).

And I thought I should post something I discovered a few months ago after I finally opened my box and became acquainted with my new AXE FX II (I have the AXE FX ULTRA which I have only used for recording purposes (I am going to post someing on it in the proper forum later)).

Well, I am a BIG fan of the whole AXE FX thing (it changed my life forever and made it so much easier, believe me).

Okay, I should mention I suffer from bouts of OCD and had (until recently) 20 + different amps and preamps Diezel (Herbert, Einstein, Haagen, VH4S), Mesa Triaxis, Rocktron Voodu Valve Online and Prophecy, Marshall JMP1's (4 of them (modded and unmodded)), ENGL Special Edition and 100 Watt Power Amp, VHT/Fryette amps and power amps (2502, 2902, Pitbull), two Marshall EL34 100/100 (one with EL34's and one with 6505's), EL34 50/50, Mesa 2:90 and 2:100, Peavey JSX, EVH 5150 III, modded Line6/Bogner SpiderValve, SansAmp PSA 1.1, and the list goes on .... (seriously).

I have been (well, had been) looking for amps to record with at my home recording stuido and I found I really liked variety since I listen to a wide range of bands and I realized I like to play more than just one style over time (I do prefer a heavier tube driven tone but enjoy a nice crispy clean tone as well).

This is the reason I like(d) having so many amps because I found that you can get different tones/styles by combining different amps with different cabs (I also had 15 4x12 cabs until the AXE FX came into my life (now I just use a Mills Acoustics 4x12 (EVM's and V30's) or my Mesa 4x12 (same speaker combo)).

Life has become much simpler because of the AXE FX (I thanked GOD for awhile there since I didn't have to keep switching between all those amps any more just to record a few guitar tracks).

Also, it doesn't look like my beautiful wife will leave me now since the amp madness has ended, lol.

Now here is where some people might disagree with me about what I have found about the AXE FX in general.

It has been established as a GREAT recording preamp but I believe that it can lack as live unit (I have found a way to make it a great live unit for live playing which I will explain in a moment).

I know there are people who can get a great clean tone and decent lead tone BUT I don't feel the rhythm tone was too great or really convincing to me for live playing (I haven't heard anyone else use it live and I am sure there are ways to dial it in to get a better feel on it (I am going to the LA AMP show to see what can be done live with the beast without using my trick).

Well, I came up with a way to make it sing and get that "tube" amp feel that I love which can only come from a "tube" amp (which the AXE FX is not (sounds like one when I record but not live)).

Now there may be some people who have posted similar discoveries in these forums, but if anyone hasn't noticed lately, these freaking forum threads go on forever these days (which is great because it shows that the AXE FX legion has grown), and I just don't have that kind of time to dedicate myself to searching for similar postings to add to them so I thought adding a new thread might help some newbies or even some oldies that have felt the same as me but never say anything about (Hey, who wants to admit their girl doesn't really look that great with those new $5,000 bolt-ons (or in this case a $2500 preamp)?).

Okay, almost there.

I want to say that I am a big fan of the Marshall JMP1 (I have four of them and they all sound different due to different preamp tubes) and I really love the "tube" amp tone and feel I get using them (I switch between them to get a variety).

I have tried using the JMP1 with the AXE FX (II and Ultra) in different cable routings and have found mixed results (without a lot of tweaking).

I mainly was going to use the AXE FX for the fx's with the JMP1 as the preamp (I am going to post later a few ways that I did the routing and what I discovered for those JMP1 fans like myself).

I always lost some "oomph" as well as tone when I combined them (but I did get a few decent set-ups with them (explanation further in another post later (already too much here))).

Finally, I realized that if I wanted that "tube" feel coming out of the AXE FX (II and Ultra) I would need it to have a preamp "tube" or "tubes" to get it.

(Oh Cliff, one day please add at least one "preamp" tube to the AXE FX, pleeeeease ........).

Well, I didn't have a way to add one to the AXE FX so I thought of another way of getting one in the signal path before it hits the power amp.

I decided to use my JMP1 preamp tube.

I am now taking the dual master outs from the AXE FX and running them into the JMP1 dual fx loop returns which means I am bypassing the JMP1 preamp itself and using just the preamp tubes (nothing on the preamp affects the tone (and you must remember to set the fx control to 12 to get the most out of it)).

I am now getting a real "tube" amp feel and tone from my AXE FX.

It really rocks live, and of course always great for recording, but now I have the best of both worlds.

And I like to switch the preamp tubes between a few different brands to get variety.

I will experiment in the future with "tube" instrument preamps to see what can be improved (you can't use the JMP1 to affect the sound being passed through it like an actual "tube" instrument preamp (everything is bypassed)).

(Oh Cliff, in the future if you would only add preamp tubes to the this awe-inspiring device, pleeeeeeease ........).

And since I have more than one JMP1 then I am still able to use one for dual preamp tubes and another JMP1 along with the AXE FX (using the AXE FX fx loop).

Hopefully, we will see a new version of the AXE FX with preamp tubes so that arguments about the AXE FX not being a "tube" amp will fade away because this new AXE FX would be an official "tube" amp.

Anyways, I hope I have helped some new users out there improve their tone and feel a little more and possibly some current users may find something new to try as well.

If anyone has found something to place behind the AXE FX as well to get that "tube" tone and feel please let me know, and thanks.

And a final statement about adding preamp tubes to an already life-changing device:

Let it be said, let it be done .........
 
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Cool option and I appreciate your correct usage of double parentheses!

If this does it for you, cool. But I don't ever need a tube in my axe-fx.
 
I don't think Axe Fx needs tubes in it. It is a modeller and it will soon come close to "real thing" so that you won't be able to tell which is which (some already can't). Also in digital you can recreate any type of preamp and poweramp. So let Vox, line6 and others do their hybryd thing.. There must be a lot of differences in wiring schematics and other parts of the preamp. Tube is not some kind of magic that you put in your amplifier and it just sounds better. So in hybrid thing you will be able to recreate only one type of a preamp. That way you will get anywhere but not to a real amp sound (IMO). I mean real amp sounds =) So that when you choose marshall - you hear marshall, when you choose mesa - you hear mesa etc..
 
Whatever it takes to get into your comfort zone is the correct approach. Beware though, there's a lot of power in the Axe and as you learn how it sounds and how to use it - your approach may change. Cliff's got great ears and the Axe is tuned in nicely, might just take a bit of time to get used to. But do use your JMP1 so you're starting with something familiar in your rig.

Have fun, rock on and post clips!
 
You won't find a bigger fan of the JMP-1 than I am (besides Def Leppard and you playingitloud) as it was my main rig before moving to the axe after an exhaustive search for that elusive tone I was looking for and a lot of dough spent on a bunch of other rackmount preamps but I'm neither going back nor really see a tube ever entering the picture in the Axe Fx.

Creative use of routing playingitloud though, hats off to ya there and I would love to hear what added benefit you get if it's possible to post a clip at some point.
 
@Secret80'sMan, I recently moved and all my recording gear is still boxed away so I have only been able to use the AXE FX II as a live practice amp lately but once I have upgraded to the latest version of AXE FX II and connected everything up again I will do my best to get a recorded clip comparing the tonal differences (there really is one) but the biggest difference to me is when you are playing the unit.

You feel the difference as well as hear it in a live situation (AXE FX going through a power amp through a cab).

I believe there are certain playing styles that might hear and feel it less and really wouldn't benefit from the added preamp tubes (my ears and playing are sensitive to the difference but friends of mine say they don't hear it or feel it as much or at all).

My range of playing style and playing influences: Classical (nylon string guitar pieces), Neo-Classical (Malmsteem and the others known for that beginning era of it), Thrash Metal (Testament, Megadeth, etc .....), 80's Hard Rock and Commercial Rock (Ratt, White Lion, Leather Wolf, Dokken, Racer X, etc ....), and lately Progressive Rock and Metal (Fates Warning then Dream Theater, etc ....).

I have been concentrating more on a Dream Theater style of playing (but a LOT less notes, lol) that meets a Testament style.

I love the technical side of Dream Theater but appreciate the aggression that comes from Testament.

And I do try other styles out as well but I find I lean more towards the technique with a touch of aggression.

I'll work on the neo-classical stuff for warming up and usually do away with it within my own music (I have never been able to get it to fit properly within my band's music style so I leave it out).

Personally, I need to feel that amp punch you get from a tube amp which I haven't felt from using just the AXE FX and since I have not heard anyone use it in a 'live" situation I can not say it is not possible just haven't heard it myself yet.

This is another reason I am looking forward to the LA AMP show next month because I want to hear it used live in a performer or band situation and I hope the styles of the performers vary (I need to hear it played aggressively live (that Ola Englund guy does a great job with the recorded heavy rhythm stuff in the recorded clips but I wondered how it would sound "live" in the room through a power amp and cabs (and of course it would have to be adjusted from "recording" to "live" to come across correctly)).

And most guys who can actually afford to buy the AXE FX are probably not the aggessive type of players (there are a few of us but not a lot).

In fact, the few friends that have the AXE FX as well and play it through their amps sound fine but they are not aggressive players and come from the Classic Rock era of playing (I mean before the 80's rockers which are now considered Classic Rock players as well).

These friends don't have the ability to play the heavier riffs because it was something they didn't desire learning over the years so they won't notice what is missing that I have found is missing in the feel (before adding the JMP1 as a way to pass through preamp tubes).

Until a person actually tries it they won't understand what I am saying hear because you have to personally experience yourself.

I was hoping when AXE FX user "ratsgym" contacted me about the possible AXE FX user forum get-together out here that I could show some people what I meant about the added "feel" of the preamp tubes. You have to experience it as well as hear it.

When ratsgym had brought over his AXE FX II to my place I had set it up for him to get that Dream Theater type of tone (with a little added aggression to it as well) I hadn't tried the AXE FX II in a live sitatuation yet and I was very impressed by what I heard and felt.

However, I did feel that my JMP1 had a "better" tube feel to it and my quest to get that "tube" feel started after that day.

I believe I have found it with using my JMP1 as the preamp tubes.

I realize everyone hears things differently but "feeling" the way an amp responds to my playing really matters to me (and I am sure to others as well (and if you don't try it this way then you won't know what you are missing)).

And using the JMP1 preamp tube option has changed the way it responds now for me and I am pretty happy with my AXE FX II as a "live" tool these days (and as I said before, I thank GOD that Cliff created this as a recording device for us (and my wife probably would probably thank Cliff if she actually understood what getting this device has done for me and our marriage, lol)).

And to those that don't think using the JMP1 or something similar can help improve tone and add a "tube" feel,
I say to thee -

Go out and try it, thow shall see and hear the difference and will join the legion of true believers!!!!

Okay, it may just be me, and not a "legion," but you will hear and feel the difference.

Let it be said, let it be done .......
 
It's unfortunate that my style of music doesn't benefit from an additional tube preamp in the signal chain. Maybe one day I'll play something that needs it so I can feel it. Or maybe I just don't know what I'm trying to feel. Oh well.
 
I do not want a tube either. I do not even use a real guitar cab. I know many guys think they need it and I respect that but added else where via tube preamp or a tube power amp. It is easy for guys to externally add tubes but if you add a tube in their is no way for the rest of us to take then out.
 
I totlaly agreee with you on the "tube" part of it adding that 'girth" and punch that is so desirable when going thru regular guitar cabs.
I went from an SS power amp back to my Mesa 50/50 and to my ears and hands it is night and day.
I"d like a more neutral poweramp (the new Fryette will be mine) but I don't get how adding a preamp tube into the chain is different than usng a tube power amp?
If I already have a tube power amp what added benefite would I get from adding another layer of tubes into the signal?
 
Im actually VERY happy there are no tubes in my Axe-fx II.
I don't think it would have caught my attention if it had tubes.
If people want to run there II's or what ever with tubes, then
run a tube preamp before or after the Axe. I don't need it/them.
 
Yes,
No tubes needed. ;)
this is what the AXE-FX II does > models the actual tube sound -and well at that.

Those half breeds already exist in Tonelab, MP-1 , and others. I've owned them all at one point! LOL
 
To Chris@KatsuKuriMedia, in forums, emails, text, etc .... it is hard to read the way something is stated but if an offense was made then it was not my intention, which is why I have avoided providing my opinion in a forum (people can take things the wrong way due to the way something is worded (and you can either not provide enough information or say too much)).

I tried to give a lengthy background description on what styles I like and why I feel having a tube in the AXE FX would benefit my style.

A person who plays a heavier style attacks the guitar in a different way from a person who plays a style where they only need to play more softly or less harsh chordings.

When I played in a commercial rock band, I had played on a solid state Lynch Model Randall amp.

It worked well for what we played, and actually a little better than my Marshall 2203 that sounded better for thrash because I only knew how to crank the gain back in those days (and now I leave it at a little more than 1/3 to at most 1/2 of the way (I have learned to back off things as I have been developing my style)).

I didn't need that "tube" sound because one thing the solid state did for our music was add better cleans (my Marshall 2203 had the worst clean I ever heard unlike that sweet clean I heard on my friend's Mesa Mark III)).

My pick attack was different because of the loss of tubes in the amp.

We change the way we play based upon the style and what amp we are playing through as well as what cab we are using.

For example, my other guitarist plays his guitar in a much different fashion than myself.

He prefers to play more softly and he prefers to play a lot of acoustic pieces.

He leaves the heavier stuff to me because this is the area where I am better than him and he plays the steel string acoustic because he plays it better than me.

I don't know what style you play or your level of playing so I don't know if it would benefit you but I do know that a person who has not tried it can't say it wouldn't improve their playing.

For instance, I once thought that my playing would improve if I was a Mesa player instead a Marshall player based upon what I heard from a friend of mine.

In my early days of playing I was a big Marshall player (I could afford to buy a Marshall) but I loved the Mesa Mark III tone that a friend of mine would get when he played live (I could not afford a Mesa back in those days).

Now awhile back he decided to sell his equipment and I bought it from him thinking I would get that killer tone he had when he played and my playing would improve as well.

I went home, fired it up, and thought I sounded horrible (my lead tone sounded good (probably better than the Marshall even though the response wasn't as good) but I could not get a responsive rhythm tone that fit my style (pretty much every riff I played sounded weak to me (no bounce or feeling)).

My style of playing did not work for that amp which I know sounded great because I had gone to enough of their shows.

I went back to playing my Marshall and sold the amp the following week (I still tried to work it in to my playing style but it just didn't work for me (the amps were night and day to me)). I found I was a Marshall player (it's what my ears and playing style became accustomed to over those early years of playing).

And over the years I have found that just switching between different tubes, power amp or preamp tubes, can make me play better, and unfortunately worst.

It's how my ears respond to the sound and then how my mind responds to what I am hearing.

However, I have found that my playing ability doesn't change much on either a solid state or tube amp when I play within certain genres of music but I feel the need for a tube amp for the bouncier rhythm and riff respone of the heavier styles.

I understand opinions vary and it also depends upon how we hear things and the way we play the guitar (techniques vary as well).

Understandably, an added tube or tubes would increase the price for something that is great as it is as a recording device and great obviously to the many who come to these forums every day.

I found my tone through it now with the adding of my JMP1 which I thought I would share here due to my revelation late last night.

And I wanted to give back something I have received here (useful information from reading through the forums).

Well, some may find it useful while others not so useful, but mainly I hope I came across as a person who loves his AXE FX and just wanted to share it with the rest of the community.
 
@kmanick, good question, I don't understand the electronics of amps well enough to provide a technical answer here.

I can only say I hear it and feel it when I added my JMP1 to the signal path.

The main reason I tried this option is because I had preamps like the POD, V-Amp Pro, Chameleon 2000, etc ... and tried using them for recording but I found they never sounded like real amps but just really digitally processed ones.

I tried adding a preamp tube in the signal with an ART tube preamp and I found there was a difference in response and sound.

It wasn't the sound I wanted to use for recording but it was an easy way of doing it late at night without disturbing the neighbors in my apartment building.

Later I bought a house and turned the garage into a home studio where I could actually record amps (this is where I the OCD really started kicking in because I found how each amp responded and sounded differently being matched with different cabs).

I moved a few years later and needed another solution and found it in the AXE FX.

From the start it was great for recording and now better for live playing for my style with the added JMP1.
 
@brokenvail,
Maybe Cliff can create a tube preamp device that could be added before after the AXE FX?

This way it keeps the cost of the AXE FX down but adds another way to tweak/modify the AXE FX tone.
 
@MaxTwang, yeah, once I really know how to tweak the AXE FX then I may say I never needed the AXE FX to be paired with the JMP1 (I actually hope to discover this for myself (one less thing to carry to a show and another thing I can sell off at home and make my wife happy, lol).
 
I think its very interesting what you did and it definitely has its benefits. But the Axe FxII's inception came upon giving a tube tone and feel without any tubes to begin with. So if adding a tube preamp were to happen,the Axe Fx as a product would loose its credibility and potential for growth in my personal opinion. A lot of times people tend to forget that a set up also really affects how you hear and use the Axe FxII. Have you ever tried going completely FRFR? if not then try it,specially with a Matrix Power Amp going in the Matrix CLR FRFR cabs,a pair of those and you're good to go. Also I highly recommend getting in to the in depth parameters,the Axe Fx is at a level where it can replicate the feel in playing and recording. Different set ups have different methods to achieve that but its very much possible without a tube pre amp.

Cheers :)
 
Cliff will put a Tube in that Axe Fx on the same day Elon Musk drops a V8 into the next Tesla.
 
Seems as there are no tubes or tube buffers in the JMP-1 Return->Output signal path.
Why do you think that you are running the Axe through the JMP-1 tubes?

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