Low and High Cut For Live Performance

[ertan]

I use 80/8000(q=12) for dynacabs, in my home studio for recording.

I wonder about yout bass settings. Do you use high and low cut for bass?

 

[MrPond]

That’s fine for low volume, bedroom jamming. I’m betting if you crank that up in a loud band type environment it’s gonna sound harsh. Remember a real guitar speaker doesn’t typically produce much, if anything above 6k anyway. Everyone’s tastes are different.

I dialed in my tones only for live, both real cab and foh.
So i think i compensate my tones with less highs in general compared (treble and presence) to cutting them with an EQ.
At bedroom levels, my sounds are already dull enough

 

[Goonie]

Guitar cab IRs mimic the limited frequency response of a guitar cab though.
Why should we need to limit it further?

This is what I've been saying and trying to understand for a long time.
Especially, making a high cut then auditioning through IR's. I would think that you'd lose musical content specific to each IR. You'd essentially want to start back at 20kHz to audition each IR.

 

[Dave Merrill]

Guitar cab IRs mimic the limited frequency response of a guitar cab though.
Why should we need to limit it further?

Well, to maybe partly answer my own question, it could be because that kind of tonal processing is commonly done in the studio to make the parts fit well with each other, and those are the tones we've gotten used to.

Live though is a bit confusing. In my (long ago) years as a (very low level) sound person, it certainly wasn't common practice. Most boards didn't have low or high cut filters at all, you were lucky to get sweepable mids.

Clearly I know nothing. Which I knew.

 

[ertan]

This is a proximity chart of a R-121 mic that I found on the Internet. Not being sure how true it is, low cut could be a necessity for the low end to stay authentic. That's why I also suspect that low cut may be necessary even for bass guitar.

 

[kelso1]

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/low-cut-high-cut.119906/

 

[Dave Merrill]

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/low-cut-high-cut.119906/

Ok, asked and answered, thank you.

 

[AlexGuitar]

I usually put in low-cuts around 80 or 100, sometimes higher just depending on how the preset sounds. However, when in doubt, keep more in and let FOH do the mixing, especially with regards to high cuts. As someone who has mixed a decent number of bands, I'd far rather have frequency content I don't want than need it and not have it. It's way easier to cut something out than to put in something that isn't there.

 

[Rotti]

I've found a little junk in the highs and especially lows really fills things out without causing the normal issues without cutting. I aim for drastically lowering, but not eliminating, below about 80hz and above 6khz give or take.

EDIT:
Here's an example of what I mean. The PEQ used here is only turned on when I'm playing very loud (easily keep up with a hard hitting drummer loud).
Most people use aggressive slopes to really kill everything below ~100hz and above ~6khz or so. Instead, I'm using a very gradual slope that begins much further towards the middle.
You can see the effect in the RTA block. Shaded orange is with PEQ off, blue overlay is on.
Differences in the mids are mostly negligible and partly due to when I hit the screenshot button, but the highs start rolling off around 2khz a little more aggressively than without the PEQ. I'm still getting some of the "junk" around 8khz, but not much at all. Just enough to have some of that recto-style sizzle that cuts well. Same story on the extreme lows. I'm still getting some "junk" below 60z, but far less than without the PEQ, just enough to have a touch of that rumble in the room, not enough to really get in the way and cause problems.

 

[DMP3000]

Guys - this has been super interesting and helpful. I've been doing my low and high cuts in the amp block (in the Input EQ section). But it looks like many of you are doing it in the cab block. Is there any reason why cab block is better than amp block? Thank you.

 

[Dave Merrill]

Guys - this has been super interesting and helpful. I've been doing my low and high cuts in the amp block (in the Input EQ section). But it looks like many of you are doing it in the cab block. Is there any reason why cab block is better than amp block? Thank you.

One's not better than the other, they're at different points in the chain, so they behave differently.

When I cut lows in the amp input EQ, it's before the distortion, and I do it to keep the low end from getting all smooshey when there's much gain happening, even a little.

Low cuts in the cab block come after all the gain stages, so they don't have the same effect, they're really just reducing low end. That's still valuable, to sculpt your tone to fit nicely in a mix with the rest of the band.

Make sense?

 

[DMP3000]

Thanks so much for that reply - totally makes sense. I appreciate it.

 

[psychomanteum7]

I have a separate preset for each song with IEMs on output 1, FOH on output 2, Bass out for FOH or amp (depending on venue) on output 4.

I use the parametric EQ for each output in settings, rather than using PEQ block, rolling off at 100hz and 12db and 7.5k 12db with a dip at 3k, -3db to reduce pick attack (play metal with more distortion). I can disable for playing at low volume by myself at home for all presets this way.

The bass output 4 I formulated a speaker curve for FOH and I disable it if I use my Quilter Bass block/cab for smaller clubs/bars.

 

[Rain]

So, I understand the reason for the low and high cuts (to create a more amplike frequency envelope) and do employ these in most circumstances, but I wonder...since our Fractal units are not merely amp simulators, but rather amp + efx simulators, does the 80-6000 hz (or whatever) envelope still provide all the audible information that is produced by the whole amp + effects chain when you attenuate those lows and highs?

Put another way, do the reverbs, filters, delays, etc. sound the same with a lowpass @ 6000hz, or is there an attenuation of important auditory cues as a result? The amp sim might be fine, but what about things like early reflections in a tiled room, etc.? It seems to me that a lowpass, and possibly even a highpass, filter would severely degrade a number of effects, if not the actual amp sim, in a given patch.

Interesting points …. I’m a have to think about this some more…

 

[Bobbyoso]

Interesting points …. I’m a have to think about this some more…

Yeah, no one else has responded, but I suspect it's because it's a complex "system" issue.

After all, even if you're onstage playing thru a 120-6k hz amp, your ears hear higher and lower than that, glasses clinking, etc., AND high-fidelity sound processing (such as delays, reverbs) added AFTER the amp block are not being cut, so what is the resultant "best practice"? Is it low and high cuts to mimic the amp in isolation, or 20-20k to capture the full frequency information that your (theoretically perfect) hearing picks up--or some compromise?

 

[Reet]

Yeah, no one else has responded, but I suspect it's because it's a complex "system" issue.

After all, even if you're onstage playing thru a 120-6k hz amp, your ears hear higher and lower than that, glasses clinking, etc., AND high-fidelity sound processing (such as delays, reverbs) added AFTER the amp block are not being cut, so what is the resultant "best practice"? Is it low and high cuts to mimic the amp in isolation, or 20-20k to capture the full frequency information that your (theoretically perfect) hearing picks up--or some compromise?

I've been experimenting at band practice stage volume with this. I leave my live preset alone and all i adjust is cab block high cut. Last week i tried 8000k 12db slope and i got buried in the mix. Thats with me on the mixer knowing where everyone is each week when we practice also. The week before i did wide open at 20k and it cut way more but was a pinch harsh. I dialed this week at home and it seems around 14k is a sweet spot to my ears. Cuts off some super highs but lets the ir breathe if that makes sense. I went to a local metal show last week and the two bands using axefx3's had the worse tone that the bands using real amps. In both cases the direct bands were using ir's that in my opinion were way to dark or had to much highcut. The real amps mic'ed with a 57 were borderline harsh during soundcheck. When the whole band played it sounded fine though. Just my 2cents.

 

[Goonie]

I've been experimenting at band practice stage volume with this. I leave my live preset alone and all i adjust is cab block high cut. Last week i tried 8000k 12db slope and i got buried in the mix. Thats with me on the mixer knowing where everyone is each week when we practice also. The week before i did wide open at 20k and it cut way more but was a pinch harsh. I dialed this week at home and it seems around 14k is a sweet spot to my ears. Cuts off some super highs but lets the ir breathe if that makes sense. I went to a local metal show last week and the two bands using axefx3's had the worse tone that the bands using real amps. In both cases the direct bands were using ir's that in my opinion were way to dark or had to much highcut. The real amps mic'ed with a 57 were borderline harsh during soundcheck. When the whole band played it sounded fine though. Just my 2cents.

For what its worth, I run single 57 IR's. Typically my cab preamp cut is 120 @ 12dB, 8k @ 6dB.

 

[Reet]

For what its worth, I run single 57 IR's. Typically my cab preamp cut is 120 @ 12dB, 8k @ 6dB.

I also am running single 57 IR's for live. I like the mixes and blends at home but its hard to beat the cut of a 57 live. I should've clarified that. Everything in my prior post is using single shot 57 IR's.

 

[Goonie]

I also am running single 57 IR's for live. I like the mixes and blends at home but its hard to beat the cut of a 57 live. I should've clarified that. Everything in my prior post is using single shot 57 IR's.

Cool. I feel like not enough users try replicating what would actually happen in a live environment before making all the tweaks, cuts, multiple mics, etc. I also have a feeling that some users think they need add a ribbon mic to get low end. Personally, I've never had an issue with low end from a live stage standpoint... I actually have to take more out sometimes. The 57+121 mixes always seem hollow sounding to me and I most of the time hear myself get lost in the mix. I do like a 57+421 sometimes too.
I don't record though, mostly live gigs.
YMMV.

 

[Reet]

Cool. I feel like not enough users try replicating what would actually happen in a live environment before making all the tweaks, cuts, multiple mics, etc. I also have a feeling that some users think they need add a ribbon mic to get low end. Personally, I've never had an issue with low end from a live stage standpoint... I actually have to take more out sometimes. The 57+121 mixes always seem hollow sounding to me and I most of the time hear myself get lost in the mix. I do like a 57+421 sometimes too.
I don't record though, mostly live gigs.
YMMV.

I agree with you on the hollowness with the ribbon/57 combo. Something seems weird about it everytime i try it. I'm glad to hear i'm not the only one who doesn't love it. Lately i've been experimenting with greenback IR's. I've been such a v30 simp my whole life i'm trying to break away from the "stereotypical" boosted 5150 into a mesa 4x12 sound