Looper Quantize

[Muzz]

I have a looper block and have the quantize box checked.
I am using tap time and hearing click in my ears.
I am very new to the AXE FX3 and may be doing something wrong.
My understanding of a quantize function is to play the loop back within the exact number of clicks rounded up or down to a whole click from start perss of the record to the end press. Using FC12
What is happening is if I press the stop a few milliseconds early or late the loop ends and starts at that precise moment. Other loopers I have used dont do this.
The looper is pretty much unuseable in the current form except for playing a loop purely to tweak tones in the preset or scene.
What am I doing wrong?

 

[unix-guy]

As far as I remember, the Quantize option affects the end of the loop playback only.

I might be wrong as I don't normally use it.

Page 51 of the Blocks Guide says:

Loop Quantize – This forces the loop length to a whole number of beats, as defined by the tempo.

Unfortunately, it doesn't elaborate...

However, saying the Looper is unusable except for tweaking tones is not a fair assessment at all. I use it all the time without the need for using Quantize, and I'd guess a fair number of others do as well.

Many loopers don't even have that feature. It just requires better timing

 

[Muzz]

As far as I remember, the Quantize option affects the end of the loop playback only.

I might be wrong as I don't normally use it.

Page 51 of the Blocks Guide says:


Unfortunately, it doesn't elaborate...

However, saying the Looper is unusable except for tweaking tones is not a fair assessment at all. I use it all the time without the need for using Quantize, and I'd guess a fair number of others do as well.

Many loopers don't even have that feature. It just requires better timing

It's not about timing at all. It's about when a foot switch activates in relation to where the click is. Post a vid of you tapping the footswitch for time and not having it change by at least 2BPM every other push. No cheating with the setting on average of 10.
To use a looper effectively in a live situation the Quantize function needs to do what it is supposed to do.
I want to be wrong and missing something. What is the Quantize switch in the menu for if it doesn't play your loop within the timing of the clicks?
Page 51 of the blocks guide says it does what I want it to do but I can't figure out how to make it work. Switching the Quantize on is not working

 

[touch33]

I would encourage you to work with it a bit more to learn how to bend it to your will…

That said, I have wished for years (on the Wish List) for a “super looper” block capable of acting as a performance looper, i.e. supporting multiple tracks and/or “phrases”.

No longer holding my breath on that one — Fractal believes the existing looper block to be good enough as is, and suggests that any additional looper functionality is best accomplished using an outboard device patched into their modelers.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Edit: see @mr_fender ‘s reply below. That’s the correct answer.

If you want a foolproof way of recording a perfect loop, turn the metronome up so you hear the click. Then record an empty first layer that is the number of beats you want your loop to be. Then start recording your actual loop on the next layer, in time with the metronome click.

If you do it this way, it doesn’t matter if the start and end points are offset between the metronome pulse, because everything will still align to the beat and loop seamlessly.

 

[unix-guy]

It's not about timing at all. It's about when a foot switch activates in relation to where the click is. Post a vid of you tapping the footswitch for time and not having it change by at least 2BPM every other push. No cheating with the setting on average of 10.
To use a looper effectively in a live situation the Quantize function needs to do what it is supposed to do.
I want to be wrong and missing something. What is the Quantize switch in the menu for if it doesn't play your loop within the timing of the clicks?
Page 51 of the blocks guide says it does what I want it to do but I can't figure out how to make it work. Switching the Quantize on is not working

Make sure you don't have a Hold function assigned to the switch used for Record or Play. Otherwise, the switch fires on release, not press.

I don't use Tap Tempo with average, I use Last Two.

 

[mr_fender]

This ↑. The tempo does not set the absolute start and end point of the "beat". It simply sets the measured time interval between beats. If you start the loop 20 ms late, it will end 20 ms late as well after the set number of beats of time you select. Fractal gear does not use a master time clock AFAIK. They can only sync the beat length to an incoming MIDI clock.

 

[tysonlt]

Big fan of the setting that starts recording after a certain threshold.

 

[Bakerman]

What's the source of the click you mentioned? It's important to realize the looper won't delay the start of recording to align with the Axe-FX metronome & tempo LED blinking (or add buffered audio from before you pressed record if it's 0-0.5 beats after the Axe-FX click), because that might not be where the beat actually falls in something else you're playing along to at a known tempo that you've matched on the Axe-FX. You might also want to loop something that doesn't actually start on beat 1.

However, there is a problem with loop alignment when recording is stopped "late" (i.e. between x.0 and x.5 beats from the moment you pressed record). The loop is trimmed to a whole number of beats, but it plays from the very start of the loop, instead of as far into the loop as your "end recording" press was late, on that first playback pass only. Failing to do this makes the loop late relative to a steady beat. The Axe-FX II does this correctly, because Cliff implemented it quickly (within a week IIRC) after I suggested it along with some other quantize improvements:

1. Don't line up the start of recording with the Axe-FX metronome. This is useless for playing along to anything else that you didn't line up intentionally with the Axe-FX metronome. (I don't remember if it would always wait until the next click or add silence at the start for a "late" press.)

2. For an "early" record stop press, don't just add silence for the rest of a beat--record what you're playing through the end of the beat.

3. For a "late" record stop press, begin that far into the loop for the first pass of playback. As mentioned above, the Axe-FX III looper is now failing to do this.

Quantize could be set to 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 on the Axe-FX II looper, and it had a "record beats" parameter (1 to 16 beats, or 0 for indefinite number up to loop length limit), modifiable trim start & trim end (cool for sweeping a small playback region forward/backward for glitchy sounds, or selecting specific segments of a larger phrase) and modifiable play, reverse, half speed controls. More loop time and the quantize option are nice but that's quite a few steps backwards for the Axe-FX III looper IMO. I think some criticism of the III's looper MIDI control here was also valid, and there should at least be an option for II style operation where values do specific things (like Play CC values 0-63 = stop, 64-127 = play) instead of any CC value simply counting as a "press" of any control. Currently you can't ensure a Play CC value 0 with a scene change won't be problematic, because it would stop the loop if playing, but also start playback if it wasn't playing when you switch to that scene.

 

[TG3K]

...What am I doing wrong?

I had the same problem with the quantized looper until I learned this tidbit:

Make sure you don't have a Hold function assigned to the switch used for Record or Play. Otherwise, the switch fires on release, not press...

Set up the Record and Play footswitches so they only have a Tap function and it should take care of your problem.

 

[mr_fender]

Yeah a hold function will make the switch fire on release instead of tap and that can really mess with your timing.

 

[Bakerman]

Hey everyone, don't skip past the part I made bold in post #9. If your recording start-end interval was slightly longer than intended, the Axe-FX III looper won't maintain the same syncronization to a steady accompaniment/click as your live recording pass. The Axe-FX II adjusts for this by omitting the correct amount of audio from the first playback pass.



@Admin M@ The Axe II Wish forum isn't accessible but I found a link to the original wish in case that's useful for anything. I think the important details are covered above though. http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/77669-improved-looper-quantize.html

 

[Muzz]

Hey everyone, don't skip past the part I made bold in post #9. If your recording start-end interval was slightly longer than intended, the Axe-FX III looper won't maintain the same syncronization to a steady accompaniment/click as your live recording pass. The Axe-FX II adjusts for this by omitting the correct amount of audio from the first playback pass.

Yes Sir it is unfortunate. Maybe in a future release it will work for live performance. To me it just doesnt make sense that all of the time based effects work off the Tap time but the Looper Block is not programmed to respond accordingly.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I have the AXE FX3 MK II Turbo 3 weeks old and the new FC12 set correctly to Tap with no hold function. From all of the information I have read and can gather the looper block isn't and cant be used as a performance looper in a live situation.
I was fooled by the Quantize switch.

 

[Muzz]

For anyone interested in how a performance looper works as opposed to the Looper Block have a look at this 1 min clip.

 

[Bakerman]

Yes Sir it is unfortunate. Maybe in a future release it will work for live performance. To me it just doesnt make sense that all of the time based effects work off the Tap time but the Looper Block is not programmed to respond accordingly.

It might still be good to give some more information or post a sound clip demonstrating the problem you're encountering.

Are you trying to tap a tempo along with an external click source or some other music and finding that loops drift with each repetition? If you don't get the tempo exactly right, that's going to happen. The issue I mentioned can be worked around by making sure you press the switch to end recording a bit (16th note or so) early, which won't actually end recording until the full beat is complete, and the loop will then play in proper sync, if you have the tempo set to match. It's not ideal that it has to be done that way, but I could post a clip looping something to a steady beat and having it play back in sync by using that approach. That doesn't help us know exactly what's going wrong for you with the looper, though.

 

[Muzz]

It might still be good to give some more information or post a sound clip demonstrating the problem you're encountering.

Are you trying to tap a tempo along with an external click source or some other music and finding that loops drift with each repetition? If you don't get the tempo exactly right, that's going to happen. The issue I mentioned can be worked around by making sure you press the switch to end recording a bit (16th note or so) early, which won't actually end recording until the full beat is complete, and the loop will then play in proper sync, if you have the tempo set to match. It's not ideal that it has to be done that way, but I could post a clip looping something to a steady beat and having it play back in sync by using that approach. That doesn't help us know exactly what's going wrong for you with the looper, though.

When you suggest hitting the end recording a bit early which won't actually end recording until the full beat is finished.
This is what is not happening. As soon and the end recording is pressed the loop repeats to the exact point where the start recording was pushed and runs to the exact spot when it was pushed to end. The internal click or tap time or the quantize switch have zero effect on the loop. The loop is repeated in real actual milliseconds from press to press.

 

[Bakerman]

It's not doing that here. I set the tempo to 30 BPM and made a quarter-note scale with the synth & sequencer. (Since the sequencer min. rate is 1 Hz this requires 2 steps per note.) I pressed record (front panel knob while viewing looper controls) when the scale restarted and intentionally pressed play almost an 8th note (1 second) before the fifth note. The looper finishes recording that beat and begins playback when the synth switches to the 5th note, and they change in sync from there. The lack of a little blip at the start was lucky timing but the rest of the note changes would be in sync even if the starting press timing was slightly off. Synth is panned left, looper right. Maybe there's an issue with MIDI/FC looper control but that's all I have time to test tonight (also no FC here).

 

[Muzz]

It's not doing that here. I set the tempo to 30 BPM and made a quarter-note scale with the synth & sequencer. (Since the sequencer min. rate is 1 Hz this requires 2 steps per note.) I pressed record (front panel knob while viewing looper controls) when the scale restarted and intentionally pressed play almost an 8th note (1 second) before the fifth note. The looper finishes recording that beat and begins playback when the synth switches to the 5th note, and they change in sync from there. The lack of a little blip at the start was lucky timing but the rest of the note changes would be in sync even if the starting press timing was slightly off. Synth is panned left, looper right. Maybe there's an issue with MIDI/FC looper control but that's all I have time to test tonight (also no FC here).

I will take a video of what is happening on my setup. I am in Australia so there is a big time difference to the rest of the world.

 

[touch33]

Gotta ask: why 30bpm? Seems like it would be insanely difficult to work with, especially if you’re trying to use auto-anything. Just not enough resolution, timing-wise, I would think.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Gotta ask: why 30bpm? Seems like it would be insanely difficult to work with, especially if you’re trying to use auto-anything. Just not enough resolution, timing-wise, I would think.

That’s why it’s being used for troubleshooting. The big gaps between beats make it much easier to intentionally miss the beat by a specific amount when triggering the looper.