Looper control functionality

I guess we can agree to disagree with what is and isn't intuitive. For me it is intuitive. For you perhaps it is not because you are coming from the background of how a different product operates.

Would you prefer if it did not start playback automatically when record is finished? Because it would be relatively easy to add a parameter that turns automatic playback on or off.

I agree that a more "intelligent" linking between MFC and Axe-FX II would be more ideal but that would take some more work to implement.
 
AdamCook said:
I guess we can agree to disagree with what is and isn't intuitive. For me it is intuitive. For you perhaps it is not because you are coming from the background of how a different product operates.

Would you prefer if it did not start playback automatically when record is finished? Because it would be relatively easy to add a parameter that turns automatic playback on or off.

I agree that a more "intelligent" linking between MFC and Axe-FX II would be more ideal but that would take some more work to implement.
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Hi Adam, while you posted your reply, I edited my previous post and added some clarifications. Could you reread it and let me know what you think about it?

I understand that everyone has different views of what is intuitive. However, some things I would say are generally counterintuitive, regardless of the product that we have experience with, such as the inconsistent play/stop state between the MFC and the Axe. I do like the feature that the looper automatically starts playing when recording stops, but switching this off would solve the play/stop button state mismatch. I'm very happy that you are willing to listen to my feedback. I understand that it may not be feasible or desirable to implement all of it, but I hope you will consider re-evaluating the looper control in the Axe and see what is possible.
 
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Arjan said:
One of the most basic operations one would want to do with a looper is press a button to stop playing the loop. This is not possible with the MFC. I am surprised that there are so few threads about this (in my opinion) broken behaviour of the looper, even from Ultra users, where the looper works in the same way.
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Hmm... I have had a stop button configured on my MFC for almost a year. I have 4 ia switches hidden under reveal set to RECORD (hit once to start recording, hit again to immediately play the loop), STOP (stops either recording or playback without starting the loop again), PLAY (starts playback from a stopped state) and STACK.

Let me plug it in and see what settings I have programmed on it.
 
npx said:
Hmm... I have had a stop button configured on my MFC for almost a year. I have 4 ia switches hidden under reveal set to RECORD (hit once to start recording, hit again to immediately play the loop), STOP (stops either recording or playback without starting the loop again), PLAY (starts playback from a stopped state) and STACK.

Let me plug it in and see what settings I have programmed on it.
Click to expand...

Thanks!
 
Arjan said:
A second control problem in my opinion is that it is too easy to delete what you've recorded, because when you accidentally press the record switch instead of your play switch, the currently stored loop is deleted.

I would like to propose a better control paradigm for the looper, following the interface on (IMHO) one of the most intuitive looper pedals that exist today: the Boss RC20XL. It has two switches. The first switch starts recording when pressed. When pressed again, the recording stops and playing the loop starts. When the first switch is pressed again it starts overdubbing. When pressed again, it starts playing again, and so on. The second switch is for playing and stopping the loop. When the loop has stopped, the first switch ('record') starts overdubbing when pressed. Deleting the currently stored loop is done by holding the second switch ('play/stop') for a number of seconds. This way, deleting the loop cannot be done accidentally.
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I agree with this.

In my opinion, during live use on stage or in a clinic environment, this would smooth the "flow of use" immensely.

Of course, after using the MFC for a few months, adapting isn't that difficult. For instance, in a clinic situation, the "press REC a second time to stop recording/start playback as well as start overdub" feature as well as not having to push play twice to stop playback would just save a few seconds of button pushing. But extend that over an hour and a half clinic and that's an extra 5 minutes of talking time, where I could be telling them how awesome my Axe fx II and MFC are. ;) Not that I don't already anyway, but you get my point.

Thanks for hearing me and more importantly listening,

Justin Shekoski
 
Arjan said:
I would like to propose a better control paradigm for the looper, following the interface on (IMHO) one of the most intuitive looper pedals that exist today: the Boss RC20XL. It has two switches. The first switch starts recording when pressed. When pressed again, the recording stops and playing the loop starts. When the first switch is pressed again it starts overdubbing. When pressed again, it starts playing again, and so on. The second switch is for playing and stopping the loop. When the loop has stopped, the first switch ('record') starts overdubbing when pressed. Deleting the currently stored loop is done by holding the second switch ('play/stop') for a number of seconds. This way, deleting the loop cannot be done accidentally.

I really think it would immensely improve the AxeFx and MFC as an integrated product if this kind of intuitive control were possible. Furthermore, it would allow us control over most of the looper's main functions with only two switches, instead of the five needed now.

Finally, but this is a very different point, the looper would be much easier to use if any silence at the beginning/end of the recorded audio is automatically truncated.
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Sorry, I don't really agree with you that using fewer buttons to do the same functionality is MORE intuitive.

I think it is far more flexible to have dedicated buttons for record, play, overdub, etc. For instance, on the Boss the overdub and record buttons are shared. So it is more complicated and takes longer to start recording a new loop because you have to "delete" the currently stored loop before you can record a new one. In our setup it is as simple as just pressing the record button again. If you don't want to delete it but want to stack layers just press the overdub button. I don't see how it gets more intuitive than that.

I DO agree with you that having better linkage between the MFC and Axe-FX II would improve usability. So I'll talk to Cliff about what can be done there to improve things. However, the basic control paradigm is not going to change.
 
My looper controls on the MFC are set up like this:

RECORD (Press once to record, press again to immediately start loop.)
IA01 NONE c1 CC#028 Off000 On127

STOP/STUTTER (Stops recording or playback. If already stopped, it will also function as a momentary stutter, triggering the loop until you let go of the button.)
IA02 NONE c1 CC#029 Off000 On127

PLAY (Starts playback of the loop)
IA03 NONE c1 CC#029 Off127 On127

STACK (Overdub)
IA03 NONE c1 CC#032 Off000 On127

I hope this helps!



EDIT: Extra settings I forgot to originally post:

EDIT->SETUP->PAGE RIGHT x 8 and make sure the IA's are set

IA1 RECORD - TOGGLE

IA2 STOP/STUTTER - MOMENTARY

IA3 PLAY - MOMENTARY

IA4 STACK - TOGGLE
 
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AdamCook said:
Sorry, I don't really agree with you that using fewer buttons to do the same functionality is MORE intuitive.

I think it is far more flexible to have dedicated buttons for record, play, overdub, etc. For instance, on the Boss the overdub and record buttons are shared. So it is more complicated and takes longer to start recording a new loop because you have to "delete" the currently stored loop before you can record a new one. In our setup it is as simple as just pressing the record button again. If you don't want to delete it but want to stack layers just press the overdub button. I don't see how it gets more intuitive than that.
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I agree that having separate buttons to control the looper would also be intuitive. Personally, I like the two-button approach as well, because it allows to control the looper with fewer IA's, leaving more switches available for all the other great effects in the AxeFx. It would already be great if we could have a setup with three buttons: 1 IA for record, 1 IA for stacking, and 1 IA for play/stop (which knows and displays the current looper state).

I DO agree with you that having better linkage between the MFC and Axe-FX II would improve usability. So I'll talk to Cliff about what can be done there to improve things. However, the basic control paradigm is not going to change.
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Thank you very much!
 
I agree with you as well, Adam.

I LOVE having dedicated buttons! That is one thing that trounces the simple loop pedals.

I merely like the idea of the automatic overdub start after you hit record a second time.

As far as dedicated buttons, they are a must, like you said, if you DO mess up a loop and have to scrap it and start over, I used to HATE having to hold a button for two seconds.
 
Justin Saosin said:
I merely like the idea of the automatic overdub start after you hit record a second time.
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Yes, that would be a very nice feature indeed. This would actually make it possible to almost get my two-button setup, while the basic control paradigm doesn't have to change:
- One button for record/overdub. Overdub would start after record was hit a second time when the loop is playing. When the loop is not playing, pressing record deletes the currently stored loop and starts recording again.
- The second button starts/stops the recording (and dynamically displays the currently looper state - playing or not).

If only using these two buttons, one would lose the functionality to start overdubbing when the loop is not playing. This would be fine for me, but for those who use this feature, there would still be a dedicated overdub/stack switch assignable to another IA, just as there is now.

This approach would be the best of both worlds, everybody wins!
 
npx said:
My looper controls on the MFC are set up like this:

RECORD (Press once to record, press again to immediately start loop.)
IA01 NONE c1 CC#028 Off000 On127

STOP/STUTTER (Stops recording or playback. If already stopped, it will also function as a momentary stutter, triggering the loop until you let go of the button.)
IA02 NONE c1 CC#029 Off000 On127

PLAY (Starts playback of the loop)
IA03 NONE c1 CC#029 Off127 On127

STACK (Overdub)
IA03 NONE c1 CC#032 Off000 On127

I hope this helps!
Click to expand...

@npx,

I have IA2 setup the same as your STOP/STUTTER but it takes 2 presses if the loop is already playing to stop it. Is that your experience?

@AdamCook, Is there a way to have the looper stop with one button press after laying a loop down? EG, I press and hold IA1 to lay my loop, let go after laying it, it plays etc then I want to stop I have to press IA2 2x. I'm fine with dedicated buttons I just don't want to tapdance to get the loop to stop on time.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Liquid Foot is also pretty plug and play, AND takes power from 7 pin MIDI Out cable (via AXE). Interesting that you 'don't know LF deeply', but the GLG i 'the most powerful thing out there for sure'. That seems like a contradictory statement. There's no 'for sure' if your'e not familiar with competing units. I do not know the GLG, but I can say that there's very little the LF units can't do, and Jeff over at FAMC is just as update happy about firmware AND his editor as Cliff is. More so, perhaps.
 
DaveZ said:
@npx,
I have IA2 setup the same as your STOP/STUTTER but it takes 2 presses if the loop is already playing to stop it. Is that your experience?
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No, mine stops on the first press of the stop button. (Both on my Ultra, and now on my 2.) What other IA's do you have assigned?

Actually, I just noticed some vital info I forgot in my last post. On the MFC, press EDIT->SETUP->PAGE RIGHT x 8 and make sure the IA's are set

IA1 RECORD - TOGGLE

IA2 STOP/STUTTER - MOMENTARY

IA3 PLAY - MOMENTARY

IA4 STACK - TOGGLE

See if that works better!
 
Arjan, could you explain how you set your FCB/Axe II up . . i have tried for a couple of days and not getting it
i do not know what to change so when you press fcb it starts record . . it changes preset on axe.
i have gone to I/O CTRL and assigned 31 to LOOPER PLAY . . hit enter and see LEARNING, i hit 31 on FCB
preset goes to 31, go back to I/O CTRL and LOOPER PLAY reads 21
MIDI CHANNEL is OMNI

any help would be appreciated
 
npx said:
No, mine stops on the first press of the stop button. (Both on my Ultra, and now on my 2.) What other IA's do you have assigned?

Actually, I just noticed some vital info I forgot in my last post. On the MFC, press EDIT->SETUP->PAGE RIGHT x 8 and make sure the IA's are set

IA1 RECORD - TOGGLE

IA2 STOP/STUTTER - MOMENTARY

IA3 PLAY - MOMENTARY

IA4 STACK - TOGGLE

See if that works better!
Click to expand...

That makes more sense, thanks I'll try it.

Dave
 
DaveZ said:
have to hit play 2x to get it to stop which is not ideal.
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Didn't want to start a new topic. Did someone already have a solution for this problem? The start/stop is set so that you have press the IA switch twice to make it stop. So the first press is 'play' and the second press is 'stop'. That is not very practical so I want to first press for 'stop'. Can the play/stop function be set to stop/play? I have a MCF and have 'Looper play' assigned to the IA. I don't see any CC for 'Looper stop/stutter' in the manual. So I don't understand the above posts.
 
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Stop/stutter = Play CC#, momentary style. Pressing sends value 127, releasing sends 0.

To avoid pressing play extra times, another approach that should work is linking (see MFC manual) the record & play IAs. Press play to end recording & start playback. Now the record switch is off and play is on, and the next press of play stops playback.
 
I have set the loop play IA switch to momentary now instead of toggle. But now I can only use that IA switch to stop not to play (or I have to hold my foot on the switch which is totally impractical). I don't want to sacrifice another IA switch to 'loop play' (like in the above examples). Linking the rec and play IA's is an option but then you have to press record first and then press another IA to stop the recording. Most loopers don't work that way. Isn't it possible somehow to just reverse the 'loop play/stop' to 'loop stop/play' (using only one IA). That is how almost all loopers work. Shouldn't be too hard you would think.

Also I have the looper rec and play under IA 01 and 02 using the reveal. Not sure if linking those switches conflicts with the (presets choose) switches when reveal is not pressed?
 
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You can swap the play switch on/off values or save it activated for that preset. Just remember that stopping the loop and recording again while on that preset gives the original scenario of 2 presses. Linked IAs shouldn't affect preset changes.

Having MFC looper controls interact in the same way as the Axe UI (stopping record switches play on) seems reasonable to expect but that would require an update to the MFC.
 
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