Locking tuners and string slack

[nathan_393]

I just watched this video:



I’m curious about this stringing method. To me, all the slack with two fingers seems like it defeats the purpose of locking tuners. But am I missing something?

I’m not generally a huge fan of PRS’ strings and would like to replace them on my new C24 with NYXLs, but this video has me second guessing how I assumed one would do this with locking tuners.

 

[GLiDE BPM]

You can pull them all the way in and lock them down.... I have zero problems and the tone doesn't change for me. I've strung them both ways.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I just watched this video:



I’m curious about this stringing method. To me, all the slack with two fingers seems like it defeats the purpose of locking tuners. But am I missing something?

I’m not generally a huge fan of PRS’ strings and would like to replace them on my new C24 with NYXLs, but this video has me second guessing how I assumed one would do this with locking tuners.

Might give that two finger trick a try next time to see if it makes much difference....

 

[bleujazz3]

There are two videos from PRS that describe both locking and non-locking tuners. Both provide good info as regards the DIY how-to.

 

[nathan_393]

Might give that two finger trick a try next time to see if it makes much difference....

The guitar came that way from the factory, with about 3/4 of a wind. I’ve done a bunch of research, and there are two theories about why this is the case:

1. They want to allow easy alternate tunings.
2. There’s a significant tone difference when the strings touch the material on the tuning peg.

If it’s number 2, I want to learn more about that and why, but nobody seems to know for sure. (Maybe @Andy Eagle does?)

 

[OrganicZed]

I try to avoid having a full winding around the post when using locking tuners.

 

[nathan_393]

Ok, just for reference, I found the original argument again about tone:

The preferred way to wind a string on a non-locking tuner is to hold the string slack with two fingers beneath it at the first fret, then wind the tuner to take up the slack. Each new wrap on the post goes below the previous wrap by pushing the string towards the headstock while winding, so each successive wrap is closer to the headstock. This makes the string exit the post low near the headstock so it has to rise at a sharp angle and bend over at the nut. This transfers quite a bit of down force onto the nut. This is the reason a Gibson headstock is tilted back about 14 degrees, to increase the down force. Increased down force improves tone, this has been known by luthiers and violin makers for more than 100 years. The break angle over the saddle is also supposed to be large enough to make proper tone.

This is from a similar thread on the PRS forum, but I don’t know if this is factual or not.

 

[Knaggster]

I don't use alternate tunings so I pull them through and lock 'em down. Never had an issue.

 

[Andy Eagle]

Less than one full turn when tuned up is best. If it starts to overlap you'r just adding friction. Adding string length to increase the angle is only a good idea if you need too. On PRS you don't.

 

[nathan_393]

Less than one full turn when tuned up is best. If it starts to overlap you'r just adding friction. Adding string length to increase the angle is only a good idea if you need too. On PRS you don't.

Thanks Andy. I thought you might have a confident answer on this. is there a guitar or brand you would recommend additional String length for with locking tuners?

 

[Sixstring]

I had always thought the more winds on the post the longer it takes to stretch the strings ie: they keep slipping on the post until they are fully stretched. With locking tuners I thought the whole point was to pull slack out of the string, lock it down and tune!

 

[skolacki]

I go for a half to 3/4 wrap. It takes some pressure off the lock point.

 

[Andy Eagle]

I go for a half to 3/4 wrap. It takes some pressure off the lock point.

Not really unless it went around a couple of times and that would defeat the object.

 

[GLiDE BPM]

The guitar came that way from the factory, with about 3/4 of a wind. I’ve done a bunch of research, and there are two theories about why this is the case:

1. They want to allow easy alternate tunings.
2. There’s a significant tone difference when the strings touch the material on the tuning peg.

If it’s number 2, I want to learn more about that and why, but nobody seems to know for sure. (Maybe @Andy Eagle does?)

I think number 1 mainly, but even with all the slack gone before locking, you have to make enough of a turn to go through all the alternate tuning notes anyway while tuning it up and break in stretching adds a decent amount more of a turn percentage to get you close to 3/4 of a turn or more anyway.

 

[Andy Eagle]

Thanks Andy. I thought you might have a confident answer on this. is there a guitar or brand you would recommend additional String length for with locking tuners?

It entirely depends on the hight of the peg in relation to the nut on the specific guitar. Sometimes doing this with the wrap going UP instead is good on a Gibson with a sticky nut. 17 degrees is a pretty OTT angle.

 

[nathan_393]

I just swapped out the strings on my PRS and I didn't add any extra slack. Works great.

One thing I found interesting is that it feels like there is less tension without those wraps (unless the PRS 10s somehow have more tension than the NYXL 10s). Strings depress more easily and you zip around a little faster, even with high action (I haven't lowered it yet, but it's definitely higher than before too by at least 1/1000"). But it makes sense to me that a wrap or two around the tuning peg might change the feel under your fingers. I'd be tempted to go for 11s here, but in reality, I think I just want light tops and heavy bottoms if I were to continue stringing this way.

 

[mr_fender]

That's due to the difference in overall length in the string. The longer the overall length, the more string there is to stretch when you bend notes. Compare the different feel between bending the high E string on a vintage Strat vs a 25.5 scale length guitar with a double locking Floyd system. The scale length and tension on the string are the same if they are tuned to the same note, but the vintage Strat has several inches more string length (beyond the nut and saddles) to stretch when you bend a note. On the double locking system only the string between the two locking points can stretch. The Floyd guitar will bend notes "faster" with the same amount of lateral force on the string. It can be a subtle difference, but feel is a very subjective thing.

Extra wraps on the tuning posts and even top wrapping the tailpiece on a Les Paul can have a similar effect to some extent.

 

[nathan_393]

@mr_fender thanks! I think I knew all this once upon a time but I’ve been handing guitars to my preferred tech for so long I forgot all of it. Thanks for your patience with me!

I suppose this is all up to user preference then, so that’s kind of wonderful. I might do the two finger trick next time to tighten it up, because this isn’t quite enough friction for me as a real heavy hitter.

 

[GLiDE BPM]

That's due to the difference in overall length in the string. The longer the overall length, the more string there is to stretch when you bend notes. Compare the different feel between bending the high E string on a vintage Strat vs a 25.5 scale length guitar with a double locking Floyd system. The scale length and tension on the string are the same if they are tuned to the same note, but the vintage Strat has several inches more string length (beyond the nut and saddles) to stretch when you bend a note. On the double locking system only the string between the two locking points can stretch. The Floyd guitar will bend notes "faster" with the same amount of lateral force on the string. It can be a subtle difference, but feel is a very subjective thing.

Extra wraps on the tuning posts and even top wrapping the tailpiece on a Les Paul can have a similar effect to some extent.

Excellent info! Thanks!

 

[marsonic]

I'm not convinced that there's all that much of a difference. You can't pull a string to pitch by holding it....there's going to be some amount of string wrapped around the post. Locking tuners have always been about slightly less fiddly string changes to me.

For a while after I got locking tuners, I was pulling the string as tight as I could through the peg before locking it down to minimize the wraps. At some point, I kind of got lazy and just tighten it down and let it wrap just a bit more. I'm not convinced the difference is noticeable compared to the string stretching naturally over its life....which people don't really complain about until the string won't hold pitch or sounds dead.

I could easily be wrong, but I think people worry too much about things like this. Tight & loose on locking, Mike Hickey one up the rest down on normal, all down on normal post hole tuners...they all work just fine for me. It just comes down to how you want to hold onto the string and guide it into the nut slot for the 6 seconds when you're first taking up the slack...keeping in mind that I don't play any whammy bars, let alone fancy ones like a Floyd Rose, and don't care to.

The only tuners I don't like are the slotted vintage-style Fender tuners where you stick the extra string into the tuner...and that's just because I've never figured out exactly how long to cut the high e string and don't like that you have to cut them before you install them. I used to buy extras of that one string because I was going to screw it up too often. Eventually, I got rid of that guitar....but...at this point, if I have to buy another guitar that comes with those tuners for some reason, I'd replace them on day one. I really hate them. But locking vs "everybody but Fender" post hole tuners....I don't really care.