Live Sound - Why am I struggling so much?

B

bryguy

Member
I thought I would post this in the lounge instead of the the AxeFx area as it may eventually lead to other areas to investigate (which I'm hoping).

Quick Setup:
Guitar to Line 6 G90 to AxeFx
Setup is Copy L->R as I'm running a single channel to the mixer.
AxeFx - Output 1 - Left Channel - Direct to Mixer
AxeFx - Output 1 - Right Channel - Direct to Monitor
Our Mixer goes to a CrossOver, power amps and then out to the mains/subs on left/right side of stage.
I was using Mackie HD1221 as a monitor before and now a Mackie DLM8

I will state before I wasn't really happy with my tone (a bit thin and trebly) but kind of set that up to try and cut through the mix. Every time we played, folks in the audience same result (can't hear your guitar!!).

When I got the Pete Thorn presets and tried them with v11b, I was really pumped. I thought wow, there is something here that reacted to me and thought this would be a good full sound. I tweaked the presets to set them up for my effects, everything was good to go. Then comes to the gig. At soundcheck, everyone was happy though and went (wow, we can hear you finally). Showtime, every one is giving me the the look, like the what the heck, where did you disappear to? FOH (note we don't have a sound guy so we are doing this ourselves unfortunately), same problem (you are non-existant). The fader is in the same spot for the main and AUX(s), so where did I go?

Here are the avenues I have thought of trying to think of the deltas between the great tone I get at home and where things are not working live?

1) at least for the FOH issues, has anybody encountered issues with crossovers and having a guitar mix affected by it (i.e.. if the crossover frequency was set in the wrong spot was it messing with your guitar tone). Any recommendations on where it really should be. Maybe the crossover might be culprit but then that doesn't explain the monitor issues on stage with people not hearing me come show time. Aux sends all go to powered monitors on stage so it doesn't get affected by the crossover.
2) Live power. I noticed on the front of my Furman unit that our power was really low come show time (showing 104-107 instead of close to 120)? Is the AxeFx affected by this in anyway if the components are less tolerant of voltage range? A long shot but thought I would ask.
3) Wireless. Would my G90 be that impacting on my live tone. I know a lot of folks use these and I even changed my cable to the guitar as the original one was flaky?
4) Are my patches just not setup for live sound?

Just curious for live sound experience and those that have had some gotcha moments and found that silver bullet(s) to improving their live sound.
 
Sounds more like level issues to me. The crossover would have to be really jacked to affect guitar that much. Wireless wouldn't do that. Are you guys sound checking as a fl band at performance volume?

I have ZERO trouble cutting and being heard, nor do countless others who use thee axe live...my guess is its just your levels at the desk.
 
The on the cheap way for the FOH, is to get some program material that you trust the mix on and play it back through the FOH. Preferably a 24bit wav file or 16bit wav file vs. mp3. From the mix position you should be able to hear if the crossovers are set whack. Especially if the program material is similar to the songs / vibe you are going for.

The more advanced expensive route would be to learn about pro FOH setup and get into shooting some noise / sweeps through the system and measuring the response etc.

For me, the quickest way to learn how to mix guitars in band would be to get a "minus one" mix of the band. Get a good recording of some of your songs with everything but your guitar part. Then you can woodshed tweaking your patches and the FOH mix until you get it.

Without actually hearing the whole band and what potentially might be the issues, its hard to get specific advice about "cut this" "boost this". Just too much going on in a typical rock act in regards to many mics and instruments in play.

Richard
 
Since you mention that soundcheck was Ok but that the gig wasn't, isn't it simply that the level of everyone else in the band has increased between the two? Both my bass player and drummer are notorious doing this - playing too lightly in soundcheck and then swamping me out during the gig... :-/

The other variable is that a soundcheck in an empty room sounds different to a room full of people. So, maybe it's a mix of the two - not enough level on tap and an EQ tweak needed.
 
Thanks for the replies folks. There are no bad ideas and it has opened my eyes to some things to attempt before the next show. Sometimes you get stuck in the box in the way of thinking and these forums help to get you to look at things you might have overlooked or not even considered.
 
adew said:
Since you mention that soundcheck was Ok but that the gig wasn't, isn't it simply that the level of everyone else in the band has increased between the two? Both my bass player and drummer are notorious doing this - playing too lightly in soundcheck and then swamping me out during the gig... :-/

The other variable is that a soundcheck in an empty room sounds different to a room full of people. So, maybe it's a mix of the two - not enough level on tap and an EQ tweak needed.
Click to expand...

This happens a lot. In the heat of battle, everything is louder and faster.

You could try setting up a +3db and +6db clean level bump at the end of presets. Then try that at the start of the show and hone in on your "battle" levels that way.
 
I had tried the boost approach (ie have a 4 db boost between my standard patch and my leads), but I find that if I try to put anymore of a bump in there that I end up clipping my output signal. Usually my 4db boost is just under the threshold of clipping so I typically don't have any room left. I guess I could try and redesign it so everything is lower to start and raise the level at the mixer and that way I have some more room to bump it if required.
 
bryguy said:
I had tried the boost approach (ie have a 4 db boost between my standard patch and my leads), but I find that if I try to put anymore of a bump in there that I end up clipping my output signal. Usually my 4db boost is just under the threshold of clipping so I typically don't have any room left. I guess I could try and redesign it so everything is lower to start and raise the level at the mixer and that way I have some more room to bump it if required.
Click to expand...

If you only have 4db of headroom left, that would be a red flag to me.

Hard strumming or kicking in efx would most likely start you clipping.

Definitely revisit your internal gain staging.
 
Gain staging, level changes from sound check to performance, use a volume pedal, make sure you have a lot of headroom, make sure your patches have enough midrange, and re-visit your PA EQ when you turn it up.

Red flags for me are when you said you set up a "thin and trebly" tone so you could cut through the mix, that you were doing FOH but didn't know where to set your crossover, and that you didn't mention what changed in everyone else's sound/volume from soundcheck to performance.
 
bryguy said:
I had tried the boost approach (ie have a 4 db boost between my standard patch and my leads), but I find that if I try to put anymore of a bump in there that I end up clipping my output signal. Usually my 4db boost is just under the threshold of clipping so I typically don't have any room left. I guess I could try and redesign it so everything is lower to start and raise the level at the mixer and that way I have some more room to bump it if required.
Click to expand...
I saw one of Scott Peterson's videos (I don't have the link to hand, sorry) in which he discussed this. His recommendation was to keep the Amp levels at -10dB, which will allow for a few dB's boost via a Filter or Vol and any additional level that an FX may introduce, making it less likely to clip the output. It's an approach I'm trying to follow when putting together my presets.
 
If red flag is admitting that I don't have all the answers, so be it ... i don't. Sucks when you get thrown in the fire and try to do the best job you can and learn through doing.
 
It's a complicated box especially if you have 8-10 blocks in a preset!

I've gotten to keeping it stupidly simple.

Start from scratch with a Marshall Plexi amp -> TV Mix cab and then only a few efx if any.

Starting like that, you can get your gain staging going pretty easy (still not totally without some understanding) and the tone should be full and cut a mix at the same time.

Richard
 
i usually have my level in the amp block at around -10. some amps need more, some less....but it leaves plenty of room for fx/boosts/etc.
 
Is there any particular reason you are using L/R of Out 1 instead of running FOH from Out 1 and your monitor from Out 2? You have WAY more flexibility doing things the latter way -- I always split via 1 and 2 so that I can mess with stage volume independently from FOH (out 1 balances for the house and never changes, out 2 can vary depending on stage volumes during the sets.)

TT
 
jlynnb1 said:
i usually have my level in the amp block at around -10. some amps need more, some less....but it leaves plenty of room for fx/boosts/etc.
Click to expand...

I usually set amp block so that bypass level is almost the same as unbypassed. Use this trick in every block and you should have plenty of headroom for any kind of boost. Try, before messing with level, to put a bit more mid in global eq.
+1 on other players that kick harder during the show, the bass... :)
 
bryguy said:
Then comes to the gig. At soundcheck, everyone was happy though and went (wow, we can hear you finally). Showtime, every one is giving me the the look, like the what the heck, where did you disappear to? FOH (note we don't have a sound guy so we are doing this ourselves unfortunately), same problem (you are non-existant). The fader is in the same spot for the main and AUX(s), so where did I go?
Click to expand...

All to common problem, I used to play with a drummer that would brake heads on a regular basses, a great drummer but just beat the snot out of his kit. A sound shield was the only thing we could find short of a new drummer as he refused to change his style.

This is a performance issue and the only real way to fix this is for you as a group to work on the dynamics of your playing when your infront of people. Everyone needs to be conscious of their playing volume. If your sound check is all good and everyone is hearing you then when it's time to do the gig and they no longer here you in the mix and nothing has changed sound support wise it's pretty obvious what's going on.

I don't know what it is with some that they feel the need to play over the top when they are in front of people. Drummers always seem to be the biggest culprit, the Drums are the most dynamic instrument on the stage with respect to volume and usually set the stage SPL. Setting up a volume boost for solos will work but in the end if your drummer is in solo mode all the time it will only compound this issue and from there it just becomes a volume war.

To me it sounds like your drummer needs to learn to show some restraint. Once that happens you will all hear your stage mix and will sound a thousand times better, you and everyone else will hear your guitar. My .02 from experience.
 
Funny enough though.. the drummer is playing through a Roland E Kit so he can't boost himself that much. He hits like a monster no matter the timeframe (thus why they kind of forced him to go electronic), so I don't think he is the culprit :)

Regarding Tommy's question about using Out 2.. that is definitely something I need to do. I took a look at the manual and it would appear I need to add an FX Loop block to engage Out 2. My patches currently take parallel lines to the output. I guess I will combine them at the end and send that completed signal out the FX Loop block.

Just to clarify I wasn't clipping before on my outputs, but I took some time last night to lower my amp outputs down to -15/-20ish and will work to create some headroom if I need it. I will try to add a filter block to add some dbs tied to my external 3 pedal and see if that buys me some extra boost as well.

Regarding my midrange - I had added that before based on some suggestions in the forum, but that ended up causing what I called the thin and trebly effect. Perhaps that was the result of my overall patch setup and not so much the result of the midrange boost but might add it back in on the Pete Thorn patches to give it a bit of kick in the mids.

Thanks for all the suggestions and feedback. I guess I was looking for an out but it is coming back full circle to my setup. More experimentation is required.
 
bryguy said:
Regarding Tommy's question about using Out 2.. that is definitely something I need to do. I took a look at the manual and it would appear I need to add an FX Loop block to engage Out 2.
Click to expand...
Just set COPY OUT1>OUT2. No loop needed.
 
bryguy said:
Funny enough though.. the drummer is playing through a Roland E Kit so he can't boost himself that much. He hits like a monster no matter the timeframe (thus why they kind of forced him to go electronic), so I don't think he is the culprit :)
Click to expand...

This makes it even more interesting. If most or all the instruments are going direct then it sounds more like a mix issue. The last regular gig I had was on a stage that was all direct Roland TD25 triggering Addictive 2.0 and once the mix was dialed in the only wild card was the vocals.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom