It's been an interesting run

[vangrieg]

notes "splat" rather than "bounce"

Or something related to dynamics?

 

[bdrepko]

I already commented on this on the previous page. I didn't say that the OP has an agenda, rather I was disappointed that he wasn't on an agenda to try and solve the problem he's experiencing and help the community. This again brings me to where I'm now. If there infact is a problem it has to be confirmed. That's how a product evolves.

I cant tell a difference between the two. If there is a difference then the question begs "who is going to notice it in the context of a full mix".

 

[erockomania]

Or something related to dynamics?

No, I don't think so. I mean, I guess it's a possibility but my guess is no.

Regarding "scratchiness"... it's more like an unnatural distortion characteristic.

Maybe, if I get the time this week, I'll record the same riff on several afx amps and then randomly mix in a real amp recorded through the Rivera Rock Crusher into the same IRs. I think if you hear many AFX models in sequence and then the real amp, it might be more clear.

 

[benvigil]

... to try and solve the problem he's experiencing and help the community. This again brings me to where I'm now. If there infact is a problem it has to be confirmed. That's how a product evolves.

Okay, now I see where you're coming from. You think there's "a problem."

The OP never said there was "a problem." There IS. NO. Problem. He prefers a different solution than you. Period.

The only "problem" is your refusal to accept that reality.

 

[Eanna]

sounds interesting...by dialing the frequencies into the axe what do you mean? just the drive pedal in front of the chain in the axe or a real frequency shaper block?

I don't know to be honest, I guess I'll try to emulate it with a peq block (?) or something like that early in the chain - or maybe the FAS Boost?! I'm not an experienced boost / drive block tweaker so I've def got a bit of a learning curve ahead of me on this - but if I nail it, I'm home & dry with my AxeFX tone. Worst case, I could always just stick the real RC pedal in back of the rack and call it in via the loop...

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

The problem I was referring to is whether or not the Axe-Fx is lacking in punch and saturation etc. as far as authenticity is concerned. There's no problem in people using different gear. I also love real amps and cabs just as much as I love the Axe-Fx.

There are a couple of things that bother me in this A/B that I want to discuss. 1) It's not the same performance. (one clip played at the studio and the other one at home but it is the same guitar with the same strings about 2 months later) 2) also because of that there's one extra pre that the Axe-Fx goes through that may cause noticable color. I think I can get even closer as far as "apples to apples" goes. That being said I doubt many people have gone to these extremes to ensure a 100% comparable end result.

Yes there is a difference. Even if I tweaked a lot more I'm sure there'd still be at least a small difference. Still I personally don't feel like I'm missing out on "real tube amp" characteristics. I think I'll have another listen with fresh ears to see if I spot something but right now I feel like I've achieved a wine cork sniffer level accuracy where I'm questioning if I'm just imagining things.

 

[erockomania]

There are a couple of things that bother me in this A/B that I want to discuss. 1) It's not the same performance. (one clip played at the studio and the other one at home but it is the same guitar with the same strings about 2 months later) 2) also because of that there's one extra pre that the Axe-Fx goes through that may cause noticable color. I think I can get even closer as far as "apples to apples" goes. That being said I doubt many people have gone to these extremes to ensure a 100% comparable end result.

Good to know. Will keep that in mind when I listen later.

And that is not extremes, that is bare minimum as far as I'm concerned.

 

[JJunkie]

thicker strings?

 

[erockomania]

My recent experience has been the opposite of what the OP describes. We can debate who has the best ears and all that which can not once again be fact checked, so I'm offering a solution. Like I said I do the real vs Axe comparison almost every week. I pulled one that's IMO one of the closest ones that I've gotten yet. It has some extreme fine tuned tweaking (all inside the amp block) to try and match the impedance curve and I'll be the first to admit that one of these is a little bit brighter than the other but IMO there's no way of telling which one is real and which one is not. I think the punch and saturation and all that is there. I'm not going to state which one is which at least for now. So which of these clips has the "sonic imprint"?

I think both are lower mid heavy, indistinct and not much top info... are these both into IRs? I'd say the second one reminds me of the Axe more and the first one is the real amp but the top end is pretty cloudy so it's harder to tell than it should be. Both are quite different but maybe due to the aforementioned variances in the time and way they were recorded.

I will try and get to a test this week that will make things a little clearer as to what the sonic imprint is.

 

[vangrieg]

I'd say the second one reminds me of the Axe more

So does it have that scratchy thing?

 

[jesussaddle]

Good story, certainly worth sharing mate.

One thing I wanna add.. not so much as a comparative to yours, but possibly relevant nonetheless..

I am thinking about the time when I had a power amp and sort of wondering about all these modifications - you reminded me of my Marshall powerbrake days, and the knowledge that hot tubes were sitting their waiting on my beck and call. Its fun to imagine what makes a rig really excellent, and your post has me scratching my head because its far above me. So far, I'm pretty happy with this baby. But one thing I do miss is the look of tubes - with the lights off in the room or studio.

I would imagine that the more tubes the better. But obviously that shows how little I know. Can you elaborate on sheer quantity of voltage relative to the quality?

 

[Georgy]

I am thinking about the time when I had a power amp and sort of wondering about all these modifications - you reminded me of my Marshall powerbrake days, and the knowledge that hot tubes were sitting their waiting on my beck and call. Its fun to imagine what makes a rig really excellent, and your post has me scratching my head because its far above me. So far, I'm pretty happy with this baby. But one thing I do miss is the look of tubes - with the lights off in the room or studio.

I would imagine that the more tubes the better. But obviously that shows how little I know. Can you elaborate on sheer quantity of voltage relative to the quality?

I will try!!

Worthy of note though.. This discovery was kinda a mistake in a way.. By that I mean, I just wanted to use the power section of the 5153 50w amp and use all the on-board amp sims just to hear what it sounded like… and it ended up sounding unlike anything I’d expected to hear or anything that I’d heard before. When I had the Carvin TS100, it sounded lifeless in comparison. I had the Carvin for about 5min then I sold it coz it really did nothing for me at all. Two of my amp-guru mates also agreed with that; it sound m’eh at best. Hard to explain. Later down the track, I tried the ENGL E840/50 valve power amp which sounded better than the Carvin, but not enough to warrant carrying around a 4RU rack that weighed 30kgs!!! F*CK THAT!

Then, my mates and I went down to our local music rehearsal space and brought all our gear.. We had amps, cabs, FX processors etc and we messed around by plugging one thing into the next thing into the next thing and so on.. We then plugged the EVH in and we were gob-smacked by the presence it had. And by presence I mean, overall sound, and oomph, not trble/presence. Being a Friedman lover, I naturally gravitate towards to BE and HBE amp sims, which just came alive. Even the EURO RED actually sounded better than the real thing. (I brought my XTC head along… and literally listed the very next day!)

We pondered on how and why the EVH sounded so much better than the other valve power amps that we tried in the past and couldn’t really figure out how and why it sounded so good. We even tried using my actual custom made 100w valve head (based on a Friedman BE schematic), and even that didn’t sound as good as the EVH did (I’m talking power amp here, not pre-amp). The EVH 5153 50w is around 470-490v, and the SLO is around 490v from memory. Both amps are very powerful and have a lot of authority in their overall sound, or presence as I call it. It kinda makes sense how that EVH 50w keeps up with other 100w heads out there, true?!

SO, I’ve had my custom made head modded (new power transformer, more voltage etc), and NOW THAT sounds every bit as good as the EVH does, when using the EVH as a power amp. So, the conclusion that I can draw from this is that voltage seems to bring this sound alive. It seems to be more authoratitive.. (I can’t word that any other way) But that can also have something to do with the actual amp sim itself within the Axe FX.. dunno.. I could be talking sh!t too! However, I still cannot for the life of me get a decent Mesa/Recto sound to sound good. It’s a struggle for me, don’t know why..?

I hope I’ve got my wording right here, but that’s what my ears, my band mate’s ears and friend’s ears are hearing. I could get corrected for what I’ve written, but I let my ears be the best judgement here.

 

[yves vanmeenen]

I don't know to be honest, I guess I'll try to emulate it with a peq block (?) or something like that early in the chain - or maybe the FAS Boost?! I'm not an experienced boost / drive block tweaker so I've def got a bit of a learning curve ahead of me on this - but if I nail it, I'm home & dry with my AxeFX tone. Worst case, I could always just stick the real RC pedal in back of the rack and call it in via the loop...

Same thing here , not a master in PEQ tweaking neither. Maybe a nice feature in axe would be a real curve you can drag with the mouse by adding drag points on the curve...would be faster and easier. Or some nice examples on PEQ's that really works with certain amps etc...just to get a good idea where to change what in the frequency curve.... now its an endless options trial and error work.... If you found the holy PEQ be happy to try it myself . success!!

 

[Eanna]

Same thing here , not a master in PEQ tweaking neither. Maybe a nice feature in axe would be a real curve you can drag with the mouse by adding drag points on the curve...would be faster and easier. Or some nice examples on PEQ's that really works with certain amps etc...just to get a good idea where to change what in the frequency curve.... now its an endless options trial and error work.... If you found the holy PEQ be happy to try it myself . success!!

Ha! yea was thinking the very same thing myself, a bit like the EQ screen on our X32 desk, nice to have a visual representation of these things. No prob, if I get this fixed up I'll let you know what the settings are for sure...

 

[mtmartin71]

How many of those amps do you use? Also, not all amps in the AFX are created equal. I remember seeing a fair bit of dissatisfaction about the ENGL models.Personally, I kinda think the Herbie model sucks compared to the real thing.



Why would you need the Atomic Monitor if you've got a Marshall Cab? Also, if you're paying more than 700 bucks for a Marshall Cab you're doing it wrong. Also, buying a pedaltrain board instead of grabbing a bit of wood from the hardware store is a bit ridiculous.

PS: Buy those pedals and run them into the AFX. Using the actual pedals is more fun and it sounds better.

My point on the cost was that you had access to 200 amps and everything you need to gig at $4K. If you only use 1-3 amp models, it pulls in the comparison much closer...obviously.

As far as the Marshall rig I proposed, I was trying to go apples to apples i.e. buying new for either option. If you buy used (which is what you'd have to do for a Marshall 1960AX at $700), then of course the whole thing shifts but then we should be comparing used prices on the Axe rig.

Why the Atomic Monitor? Because 95% of the time, for me, I'd never be able to roll in that 4x12. Just the physical space it takes up would pose a problem for a lot of gigs. But the bigger issue is the sheer volume to open it up to where I'd need it. The Torpedo Live would be there to soak up the Marshall and process an IR so I can send a moderately cranked Marshall tone to the board and get it back via my CLR monitor. I don't know if the Torpedo attenuates or if an attenuated/neutered signal through a 4x12 sounds better than a cranked signal through an IR. I've never had a chance to test but maybe there are some solutions that would allow me to use the stack at a reasonable volume.

 

[benvigil]

We pondered on how and why the EVH sounded so much better than the other valve power amps that we tried in the past and couldn’t really figure out how and why it sounded so good. We even tried using my actual custom made 100w valve head (based on a Friedman BE schematic), and even that didn’t sound as good as the EVH did (I’m talking power amp here, not pre-amp). The EVH 5153 50w is around 470-490v, and the SLO is around 490v from memory. Both amps are very powerful and have a lot of authority in their overall sound, or presence as I call it. It kinda makes sense how that EVH 50w keeps up with other 100w heads out there, true?!

The Friedman has EL-84s while the 5153 has 6L6s, correct? Also, in those two amp designs the power sections play slightly different roles. The design of the 5153 power section is designed to deliver clean power with lots of headroom to the drivers (like most Mesas) whereas in most Marshall-esque designs, the power section is contributing more colour to the sound.

Of course, the transformer and voltage DO make a difference too, as you said, but the amount of clean headroom the power section can deliver can make a huge difference.

 

[Georgy]

The Friedman has EL-84s while the 5153 has 6L6s, correct? Also, in those two amp designs the power sections play slightly different roles. The design of the 5153 power section is designed to deliver clean power with lots of headroom to the drivers (like most Mesas) whereas in most Marshall-esque designs, the power section is contributing more colour to the sound.

Of course, the transformer and voltage DO make a difference too, as you said, but the amount of clean headroom the power section can deliver can make a huge difference.

There you go - makes more sense now doesn't it! I'm no expert on power sections of amps/clean head room etc etc etc; I can only go by what I'm hearing and feeling in the room, right?!

 

[jesussaddle]

I will try!!

Worthy of note though.. This discovery was kinda a mistake in a way.. By that I mean, I just wanted to use the power section of the 5153 50w amp and use all the on-board amp sims just to hear what it sounded like… and it ended up sounding unlike anything I’d expected to hear or anything that I’d heard before. When I had the Carvin TS100, it sounded lifeless in comparison. I had the Carvin for about 5min then I sold it coz it really did nothing for me at all. Two of my amp-guru mates also agreed with that; it sound m’eh at best. Hard to explain. Later down the track, I tried the ENGL E840/50 valve power amp which sounded better than the Carvin, but not enough to warrant carrying around a 4RU rack that weighed 30kgs!!! F*CK THAT!

Then, my mates and I went down to our local music rehearsal space and brought all our gear.. We had amps, cabs, FX processors etc and we messed around by plugging one thing into the next thing into the next thing and so on.. We then plugged the EVH in and we were gob-smacked by the presence it had. And by presence I mean, overall sound, and oomph, not trble/presence. Being a Friedman lover, I naturally gravitate towards to BE and HBE amp sims, which just came alive. Even the EURO RED actually sounded better than the real thing. (I brought my XTC head along… and literally listed the very next day!)

We pondered on how and why the EVH sounded so much better than the other valve power amps that we tried in the past and couldn’t really figure out how and why it sounded so good. We even tried using my actual custom made 100w valve head (based on a Friedman BE schematic), and even that didn’t sound as good as the EVH did (I’m talking power amp here, not pre-amp). The EVH 5153 50w is around 470-490v, and the SLO is around 490v from memory. Both amps are very powerful and have a lot of authority in their overall sound, or presence as I call it. It kinda makes sense how that EVH 50w keeps up with other 100w heads out there, true?!

SO, I’ve had my custom made head modded (new power transformer, more voltage etc), and NOW THAT sounds every bit as good as the EVH does, when using the EVH as a power amp. So, the conclusion that I can draw from this is that voltage seems to bring this sound alive. It seems to be more authoratitive.. (I can’t word that any other way) But that can also have something to do with the actual amp sim itself within the Axe FX.. dunno.. I could be talking sh!t too! However, I still cannot for the life of me get a decent Mesa/Recto sound to sound good. It’s a struggle for me, don’t know why..?

I hope I’ve got my wording right here, but that’s what my ears, my band mate’s ears and friend’s ears are hearing. I could get corrected for what I’ve written, but I let my ears be the best judgement here.

You remind me of my experience with tube amps, but my experiences are so much more limited. I was using Boogie power amps, and other stuff for the pre. Having a Marshall Powerbrake allowed me to get that thing cranked up, and I swore it sounded a lot better & more creamy, and although I could have tried more amps, at that time guys in my budget range were jumping onboard with Randall and Line 6; at least I had that tube power amp sound - sounded great running vinyl through it too. But I appreciate your description I'm thinking Nikola Tesla would appreciate it as well.

 

[Rhiza]

I bought the Axe-FX II simply because I can't afford having several amps, cabinets, microphones and effect pedals. Don't have the room for it either.
I went down to my friends amazing studio one time and did an A/B test with a Mesa Dual Rectifier and a EVH 5150. Compared that to the Axe-FX II and I honestly couldn't hear the difference.
But good luck to Speculum and I'm glad he's found something that made him happy and I'm glad that he's not leaving the fractal family for good

 

[clarky]

@Speculum Speculorum great to hear that you've managed to find your tonal utopia no matter what kit you're using to create it..
I think we all know how elusive it can be to find..
but when you find it, grasp it with both hands..
best of luck to ya..