Is there such a thing as "Reverse Fletcher Munson"??

I bet FOH is messing with the EQ on your channel. I had an RCF and the tones I made on it translated wonderfully to FOH
 
brokenvail said:
I bet FOH is messing with the EQ on your channel. I had an RCF and the tones I made on it translated wonderfully to FOH
Click to expand...

The last show I played I had the sound guy start at flat eq. Yamaha digital board. Two yamaha dual 15" mains with separate subs.

Then I played through my rcf the tones were awesome. Through the mains it sounded like the gain was cut in half. Until the boosted the mids a ton the mains sounded horrible. So in that case, playing with the eq was the only way to get somewhat if a decent tone from the mains. Keep in mind this was just during line check so no other instruments were playing. So I didn't need to boost mids to get it to sit better in the mix, I needed mids to even get some gain and punch back. The rcf did not transfer well at all. I don't really get it


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brokenvail said:
I bet FOH is messing with the EQ on your channel. I had an RCF and the tones I made on it translated wonderfully to FOH
Click to expand...

Playing same venues, with same PA's and sound guys and same gear as before. Same presets. Used to sound great, now it doesn't. As I said, RCF doesn't sound right either, FOH sound guy can't change RCF tone.
 
yek said:
How do you connect to FOH and monitors?
Click to expand...

I run Output 1 XLR L to FOH. Then Output 2 1/4" to RCF. I've always used the same method. Gives me independent volume over both signals.
Is there a better way to run to FOH Yek? I've never had it be an issue, but very open to suggestions.
Thanks!
 
boltrecords said:
The last show I played I had the sound guy start at flat eq. Yamaha digital board. Two yamaha dual 15" mains with separate subs.

Then I played through my rcf the tones were awesome. Through the mains it sounded like the gain was cut in half. Until the boosted the mids a ton the mains sounded horrible. So in that case, playing with the eq was the only way to get somewhat if a decent tone from the mains. Keep in mind this was just during line check so no other instruments were playing. So I didn't need to boost mids to get it to sit better in the mix, I needed mids to even get some gain and punch back. The rcf did not transfer well at all. I don't really get it


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Click to expand...


Bill Piersall said:
Playing same venues, with same PA's and sound guys and same gear as before. Same presets. Used to sound great, now it doesn't. As I said, RCF doesn't sound right either, FOH sound guy can't change RCF tone.
Click to expand...
This is strange findings. Wonder if the FOH has the house eq scooped or of the speakers have a mid dip. I played patches I made with my RCF in 100 seat venues that had crappy EV and Yamaha speakers as well as 10,000 seat venue with a meyers line array and sub set up and my patches always translated really well.
 
You might want to rule out possible configuration differences between out1 and out2.
You're using Echo Out2 > Out1, or FXL?
 
Bill Piersall said:
Wouldn't some aspect of this apply in reverse? In other words, presets made at loud volume, bass etc. set accordingly. Then when volume is dropped, bass is less aparrent?
Seems like this makes sense to some extent.
Click to expand...

Yes... but I wouldn't say it's "in reverse".

It's the same effect in both cases.

Human ears / brains are not flat in regards to frequency amplitude and sound pressure level.
 
Bill Piersall said:
Playing same venues, with same PA's and sound guys and same gear as before. Same presets. Used to sound great, now it doesn't. As I said, RCF doesn't sound right either, FOH sound guy can't change RCF tone.
Click to expand...

Rcf sounds fine to me. I'm only having problems with foh


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boltrecords said:
So for a while now I've been having a tough time translating my FRFR tones to a live FOH setting. I always dial in my tones with my RCF monitor cranked. Probably 3/4 or more volume. Just to make sure its at gig volume. But the problem I'm having is not my monitor at a gig. The rcf always sounds great. It's the FoH speakers that always sound weak and lifeless. And it not the same gig. This is at a majority of gigs with all different types of speaker setups.

But one thing that I notice is that when in running a sound check, the FOH speakers don't seem to be pushed as hard as my RCF is. So is it possible that I'm getting a reversed fletcher Munson? Am I dialing in the tones on an almost fully pushed speaker and then the FoH speakers are not having to push as hard so my tones end up weaker?

Any thoughts on this?




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Click to expand...

it might be something to do with the gain staging of your axe signal into the mixing desk, maybe its distorting in a way that thins out of the tone
 
maybe the way they tune the rooms with the graphic EQs is killing the tone as well. I imagine if they completely pulled out 1000 and a few others it would think out considerably (for me)
 
yek said:
You might want to rule out possible configuration differences between out1 and out2.
You're using Echo Out2 > Out1, or FXL?
Click to expand...

Whatever the equivalent was to copy 1 to 2. When it changed to echo I re set it to make out 1 come out if out 2

What else may be causing differences between out 1 and out 2


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brokenvail said:
This is strange findings. Wonder if the FOH has the house eq scooped or of the speakers have a mid dip. I played patches I made with my RCF in 100 seat venues that had crappy EV and Yamaha speakers as well as 10,000 seat venue with a meyers line array and sub set up and my patches always translated really well.
Click to expand...

Has always been great for me too. This is "multiple venues" & "through the RCF" for me now. Both are affected the same way. Rules out any PA Issues or sound men problems.

Need to boost mids, cut gain, and even back off on transformer match to get useable tone back. Completely changes feel and sound of patch. Thin, Compressed, hardly any mids or bass, squished gain tone. Not even close to useable.

I've played many gigs with Axe and RCF without issue. Sounded great through FOH and Axe and have always made minor adjustments using Axe Fx front panel level.
This has only been a problem since FW13 or 14. I've been fighting it since.
Again not blaming FW, I'm sure I missed something in release notes or something and it's user error. Current patches have very minor, if any, changes from patches I've gigged with repeatedly. Been using Axe since FW5. Always gigged with RCF, FRFR, no issue, great tone.
Now I'm really struggling.

Playing on some quieter stages, guys with IEM's etc. I don't use IEM's. Only thing that's changed really, is I've reduced volume on Axe front panel to quiet down RCF on stage. Also, turned feed to FOH down to match level at RCF. Like both volumes to be the same so I know what FOH feed sounds like.
Patches created with Axe front panel level at noon, RCF 1/2 way up. Going to try to create patch at 10 O'clock too see if creating at lower volume helps.
Changing volume on front panel of Axe shouldn't result in any different tone than I'd get if I reduced volume on RCF, right?

Again, seems to me if Fletcher Munson makes us think we need more bass or different EQ at lower volume than higher volume, seems like reverse would also be true.
Example; At low volume I boost bass/EQ/Gain to make patch sound full and punchy. I then turn up to gig level, the preset now sounds too bass heavy/EQ'd wrong and too much gain.

Seems this would also be true to some extent:

Example 2: Create a patch at gig volume with bass/EQ/Gain set to sound great. Turn down, now preset seems to need more bass/different EQ/Different Gain level.

I know I'm simplifying, and I don't pretend to fully understand Acoustics, but logic is telling me at least some of this should be true.
That said, logic has gotten my nose broken at a bar once,

Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it. I'll keep plugging away, and if I get it solved I'll let you guys know.
 
Bill Piersall said:
Has always been great for me too. This is "multiple venues" & "through the RCF" for me now. Both are affected the same way. Rules out any PA Issues or sound men problems.

Need to boost mids, cut gain, and even back off on transformer match to get useable tone back. Completely changes feel and sound of patch. Thin, Compressed, hardly any mids or bass, squished gain tone. Not even close to useable.

I've played many gigs with Axe and RCF without issue. Sounded great through FOH and Axe and have always made minor adjustments using Axe Fx front panel level.
This has only been a problem since FW13 or 14. I've been fighting it since.
Again not blaming FW, I'm sure I missed something in release notes or something and it's user error. Current patches have very minor, if any, changes from patches I've gigged with repeatedly. Been using Axe since FW5. Always gigged with RCF, FRFR, no issue, great tone.
Now I'm really struggling.

Playing on some quieter stages, guys with IEM's etc. I don't use IEM's. Only thing that's changed really, is I've reduced volume on Axe front panel to quiet down RCF on stage. Also, turned feed to FOH down to match level at RCF. Like both volumes to be the same so I know what FOH feed sounds like.
Patches created with Axe front panel level at noon, RCF 1/2 way up. Going to try to create patch at 10 O'clock too see if creating at lower volume helps.
Changing volume on front panel of Axe shouldn't result in any different tone than I'd get if I reduced volume on RCF, right?

Again, seems to me if Fletcher Munson makes us think we need more bass or different EQ at lower volume than higher volume, seems like reverse would also be true.
Example; At low volume I boost bass/EQ/Gain to make patch sound full and punchy. I then turn up to gig level, the preset now sounds too bass heavy/EQ'd wrong and too much gain.

Seems this would also be true to some extent:

Example 2: Create a patch at gig volume with bass/EQ/Gain set to sound great. Turn down, now preset seems to need more bass/different EQ/Different Gain level.

I know I'm simplifying, and I don't pretend to fully understand Acoustics, but logic is telling me at least some of this should be true.
That said, logic has gotten my nose broken at a bar once,

Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it. I'll keep plugging away, and if I get it solved I'll let you guys know.
Click to expand...

It can totally be FW, I have had similar issues where the FW causes me to adjust volume or gain. What FW are you using now, what amp are you using ect? When updating do refresh the amp ect?
 
brokenvail said:
It can totally be FW, I have had similar issues where the FW causes me to adjust volume or gain. What FW are you using now, what amp are you using ect? When updating do refresh the amp ect?
Click to expand...

I'm on 15.05. Use Double/Vibroverb and Plexi 100 Normal primarily. Also using AC20DLX and JTM45. Using free AC20DLX UR IR and the /13 1x12 Cab as well. WISH /13 1x12 WAS ULTRA RES...just a subtle hint, lol. Great cab.
I've reset Amp Block, All Presets etc. Have not reloaded FW. If I use a gain pedal (not often) I favor the RC and AC Boosts, Zendrive, Lovepedal or BB Preamp. Don't run high gain, mostly pushed cleans, blues, classic rock stuff.
 
boltrecords said:
What else may be causing differences between out 1 and out 2
Click to expand...

Well, the Global EQ. Each output has its own EQ plus Gain level (Global menu)
Also, there's a separate Boost/Pad for each output in I/O, should be zero.
And there's the output mode selector (Stereo, Sum, Copy L>R).

Easy way to test is to just swap cables. Feed FOH the exact signal you're sending to your Rcf by using that cable. Or vice versa.

Can you upload a preset?
 
Bill Piersall said:
In other words, presets made at loud volume, bass etc. set accordingly. Then when volume is dropped, bass is less aparrent?
Seems like this makes sense to some extent.
Click to expand...

The 'loudness' switch/button that you find on most hifi stereos came about to compensate for lack of apparent bass and treble at lower volumes. Reverse Fletcher Munson probably isn't the correct way to put it - it's still regular Fletcher Munson, just that most people encounter problems when translating a preset made in low volume conditions.
 
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