Is it possible to adjust FM-3 settings with an external MIDI controller?

M

MirrorProfiles

Inspired
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Hi there!

I recently picked up a Behringer X Touch Mini to control various amp sims. So far it’s working great - most have MIDI learn and amp sims have pretty consistent controls (at least for the main ones you find on the amp).

I was wondering if it was possible to control FM-3 with an external MIDI controller so rather than clicking around, I can just turn a knob and adjust gain or master volume or whatever.

Is this possible to do through fm-3 edit using USB midi devices, or do I need a physical MIDI cable going between the controller and the FM-3?

Is anyone using their fractal devices like this?
 
"The FM-3 does NOT support MIDI-over-USB. Sending MIDI to it over USB can lead to unpredictable behavior"

Just stumbled on this, this is a massive shame as my controller only has USB out.
 
I do something similar using wireless bluetooth MIDI (WIDI bud/jack), but on a much smaller scale (just controlling 6 parameters from an app on my iPhone). It should be possible, but I believe you’d need to set up every parameter you wanted to modify individually in the FM3 using external controllers and modifiers, and you’d be limited in the number of params you can control.

-Aaron
 
GitGuy513 said:
Not trying to be an a-hole because I feel your pain, but what it the real shame, the FM3 not doing midi over USB or a “MIDI” controller designed and sold without the traditional and ubiquitous 5 pin DIN midi connection and control??
Click to expand...
I take your point, but 5 pin DIN midi connections haven't been ubiquitous for years. Many (most?) controllers these days have usb and no 5 pin DIN.
 
GlennO said:
I take your point, but 5 pin DIN midi connections haven't been ubiquitous for years. Many (most?) controllers these days have usb and no 5 pin DIN.
Click to expand...
What was the connector used when the MIDI spec was officially designated in 1983? Any equipment worth its salt that claims to be midi capable should use a 5 pin DIN and USB. My point is that the 5 pin DIN was the original spec and still is so yes it’s been years.

Edit:
And let’s not fool ourselves, the only reason is so we can be sold cheap plastic crap. Size could factor, but it really isn’t the reason.
 
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GitGuy513 said:
What was the connector used when the MIDI spec was officially designated in 1983? Any equipment worth its salt that claims to be midi capable should use a 5 pin DIN and USB. My point is that the 5 pin DIN was the original spec and still is so yes it’s been years.

Edit:
And let’s not fool ourselves, the only reason is so we can be sold cheap plastic crap. Size could factor, but it really isn’t the reason.
Click to expand...

The OP simply lamented that the FM3 doesn't have USB midi because he has some gear that doesn't have 5 pin DIN. You claimed 5 pin DIN is ubiquitous. I'm just pointing out that it isn't ubiquitous and hasn't been for many years, so I'm not sure how anyone could object to his point. In fact, this is a common complaint about the FM3.
 
A MIDI controller with only USB out is pretty weak but at the same time so is not having USB over MIDI on the FM3. Even a much cheaper Line6 HX Stomp afaik supports it.

But to answer OP's question, yes you can use an external MIDI controller to adjust settings, but with a pile of limitations:
  • You can only map up to 16 controls as external modifiers.
  • For mapped controls FM3-Edit or front panel will no longer be able to adjust them whether a MIDI controller is connected or not. To restore this functionality you need to remove these modifiers one by one.
  • Only absolute values (0-127) are supported. On controllers with infinite rotaries this sucks because they might not have any indicator for what the current value of each encoder is. With relative values (<64 for down, >64 for up) you could simply increment/decrement saved preset value easily so it works in an intuitive way.
In short the support for external MIDI knob controllers sucks on all current gen Fractal units. In absence of this I'd recommend getting familiar working with the Perform view. It's too limited for anything beyond live use but might still be enough for what you want to tweak quickly.
 
GitGuy513 said:
Not trying to be an a-hole because I feel your pain, but what it the real shame, the FM3 not doing midi over USB or a “MIDI” controller designed and sold without the traditional and ubiquitous 5 pin DIN midi connection and control??
Click to expand...
The real shame is FM-3 already having USB, which is already hooked up to my computer permanently and can already communicate with FM-3 through that. So many midi controllers now do the bulk of the work through USB - it’s so much more convenient to route things through the computer to wherever they need to go. Multichannel MIDI interfaces are kind of niche and pricey these days, and all things considered, shouldn’t be necessary on something high end and modern like an FM-3. I bought a simple controller recently which works fine with plenty of other gear, so it was kind of a surprise to see how much of a PITA it would be to use with the FM-3 when others you just right click and press learn and it works.
GlennO said:
I take your point, but 5 pin DIN midi connections haven't been ubiquitous for years. Many (most?) controllers these days have usb and no 5 pin DIN.
Click to expand...
Yep. Way neater in the studio when the gear is already hooked up with USB. I have some gear that has USB and MIDI at the same time and it’s annoying having unnecessary clutter like that in 2022.
GitGuy513 said:
What was the connector used when the MIDI spec was officially designated in 1983? Any equipment worth its salt that claims to be midi capable should use a 5 pin DIN and USB. My point is that the 5 pin DIN was the original spec and still is so yes it’s been years.

Edit:
And let’s not fool ourselves, the only reason is so we can be sold cheap plastic crap. Size could factor, but it really isn’t the reason.
Click to expand...
I have MIDI controllers with USB and MIDI, as well as some that are smaller and just have USB. Not all controllers need 5 pin DIN, I have plenty of other MIDI gear in the studio that can route MIDI if needed. What doesn’t make sense to me, is when you have a modern high powered expensive unit that already communicates with USB and things like MIDI learn aren’t immediately intuitive. Size is absolutely a factor btw, I have some small controllers on my desk just for tapping notes in or communicating MIDI. MIDI ports wouldn’t benefit the purpose of those devices in any way at all, it has nothing to do with cost in this instance. If I was trying to do some things without the computer, I’d opt for DIN but the point is I’m already controlling the FM-3 through USB, so it’s inelegant to have to fudge around with more cables.
laxu said:
In short the support for external MIDI knob controllers sucks on all current gen Fractal units. In absence of this I'd recommend getting familiar working with the Perform view. It's too limited for anything beyond live use but might still be enough for what you want to tweak quickly.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately this is the case. I LOVE my FM-3, and just assumed that MIDI would be totally taken care of based on the strength of everything else on the device, and how long Fractal have been doing this stuff. It’s also a shame, as if it was implemented well, it could open up the user interface in such an intuitive way for people who are using it in a studio environment. I hope it’s addressed at some point in the future, I get that it’s not a particularly exciting feature though.
 
laxu said:
A MIDI controller with only USB out is pretty weak but at the same time so is not having USB over MIDI on the FM3. Even a much cheaper Line6 HX Stomp afaik supports it.

But to answer OP's question, yes you can use an external MIDI controller to adjust settings, but with a pile of limitations:
  • You can only map up to 16 controls as external modifiers.
  • For mapped controls FM3-Edit or front panel will no longer be able to adjust them whether a MIDI controller is connected or not. To restore this functionality you need to remove these modifiers one by one.
  • Only absolute values (0-127) are supported. On controllers with infinite rotaries this sucks because they might not have any indicator for what the current value of each encoder is. With relative values (<64 for down, >64 for up) you could simply increment/decrement saved preset value easily so it works in an intuitive way.
In short the support for external MIDI knob controllers sucks on all current gen Fractal units. In absence of this I'd recommend getting familiar working with the Perform view. It's too limited for anything beyond live use but might still be enough for what you want to tweak quickly.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I wasn’t aware of this stuff, it’s very surprising to me and quite a shame.

I use the perform controls a bit, but I was hoping to be able to use another controller in closer reach and where I could adjust more parameters without needing to scroll around.

Seems like using a mouse and FM-3 edit, with the occasional twiddle on the device is the best compromise.

HX stomp has it implemented quite well, it’s screen and 3 knobs are pretty annoying for me to use (so I always use the editor app) but they’ve done it in a way that the HW, software controller and plugin can be controlled in exactly the same way. I’d love if FM3 edit had the ability to choose the available MIDI devices connected to the same computer, and then you just right click a parameter and MIDI learn.
 
MirrorProfiles said:
Thanks! I wasn’t aware of this stuff, it’s very surprising to me and quite a shame.

I use the perform controls a bit, but I was hoping to be able to use another controller in closer reach and where I could adjust more parameters without needing to scroll around.

Seems like using a mouse and FM-3 edit, with the occasional twiddle on the device is the best compromise.

HX stomp has it implemented quite well, it’s screen and 3 knobs are pretty annoying for me to use (so I always use the editor app) but they’ve done it in a way that the HW, software controller and plugin can be controlled in exactly the same way. I’d love if FM3 edit had the ability to choose the available MIDI devices connected to the same computer, and then you just right click a parameter and MIDI learn.
Click to expand...
Yeah I used HX Stomp just as an example of "USB over MIDI is not just reserved for higher end units" type thing. I don't like its UI either despite loving the one on the full Helix, the HX Stomp UI is just too gimped to fit its small screen.

MIDI learn to just directly map MIDI CC -> parameter would definitely be nice as now the modifier system feels a bit ill suited because of how it's limited to just 16 external controllers as it was never intended for what this thread is about. By comparison Line6 Helix stuff allows for up to 64 controls to be mapped, plus essentially context-based editing by allowing MIDI CC's to replicate the front panel functions. While I prefer Fractal for many things, MIDI support is not their strong suit.

I'm thinking of writing a middleman software that translates MIDI CC -> change Axe-Fx param via Sysex to allow Axe-Edit-like editing using MIDI knob controllers but so far haven't had the time to delve into it to figure out the Sysex communication as it's not publicly available (3rd party MIDI spec is not enough and everything else just works for Axe-Fx 2). Another area where Fractal could do better by publishing decent docs for interfacing with their hw. The MIDI spec is mostly suitable for foot controllers and is what you see on e.g Morningstar MIDI controllers offering Fractal integration.

I firmly believe that Axe-Edit/FMx-Edit paired with a MIDI knob controller (or multiple!) would be the ultimate editing system for Fractal if they just took the time to implement support for making this possible. Nothing beats physical knobs for adjustments.
 
laxu said:
Yeah I used HX Stomp just as an example of "USB over MIDI is not just reserved for higher end units" type thing. I don't like its UI either despite loving the one on the full Helix, the HX Stomp UI is just too gimped to fit its small screen.

MIDI learn to just directly map MIDI CC -> parameter would definitely be nice as now the modifier system feels a bit ill suited because of how it's limited to just 16 external controllers as it was never intended for what this thread is about. By comparison Line6 Helix stuff allows for up to 64 controls to be mapped, plus essentially context-based editing by allowing MIDI CC's to replicate the front panel functions. While I prefer Fractal for many things, MIDI support is not their strong suit.

I'm thinking of writing a middleman software that translates MIDI CC -> change Axe-Fx param via Sysex to allow Axe-Edit-like editing using MIDI knob controllers but so far haven't had the time to delve into it to figure out the Sysex communication as it's not publicly available (3rd party MIDI spec is not enough and everything else just works for Axe-Fx 2). Another area where Fractal could do better by publishing decent docs for interfacing with their hw. The MIDI spec is mostly suitable for foot controllers and is what you see on e.g Morningstar MIDI controllers offering Fractal integration.

I firmly believe that Axe-Edit/FMx-Edit paired with a MIDI knob controller (or multiple!) would be the ultimate editing system for Fractal if they just took the time to implement support for making this possible. Nothing beats physical knobs for adjustments.
Click to expand...
Great post, and I agree with everything here. A nice dedicated controller would be such a powerful additional to the Axe and FM series gear. Even leaving the DAW to go back and forth to the editor software can be annoying for which app is in focus (for instance when using faders and other DAW controllers).

I guess the demand for this is fairly small, although I also suspect many don’t realise the full potential of what it can offer
 
MirrorProfiles said:
Great post, and I agree with everything here. A nice dedicated controller would be such a powerful additional to the Axe and FM series gear. Even leaving the DAW to go back and forth to the editor software can be annoying for which app is in focus (for instance when using faders and other DAW controllers).

I guess the demand for this is fairly small, although I also suspect many don’t realise the full potential of what it can offer
Click to expand...
Yeah it's niche for sure. Most people don't own a knob controller and are fine tweaking with mouse and keyboard.
 
Yes this post was illuminating to say the least. One of the limitations of some modelers vs real amps and pedals is the real time tactile knob/slider adjustment. I thought I could overcome some of this with my FM9 in connection with a midi CC based controller. Midi over USB can be overcome with a midi host device so not too much of an issue. Only being able to map up to 16 controls as external modifiers is still better than none. In my use case, I am thinking of mapping CC values to 'available' parameters on efx blocks such as basic reverb, delay, chorus(vibrato) and drive blocks. This would kind of emulate what you might have on certain real amps and or pedals. Does anyone know if setting a control as a modifier, set it globally or locally when assigning that controller to an assignable (little yellow dot indicator) parameter in a block? In other words does that assignment carry over to the same block used in other presets or scenes? I assume not, so would need to assign that control modifier on on individual bases to each block/parameter/preset wanted. This might be most useful when creating custom presets and or scenes etc. Of course performance mode (PP) is the other option to adjust in real time. But if your FM9 is on the floor for foot switch changes, good luck.
 
Nsurround said:
Yes this post was illuminating to say the least. One of the limitations of some modelers vs real amps and pedals is the real time tactile knob/slider adjustment. I thought I could overcome some of this with my FM9 in connection with a midi CC based controller. Midi over USB can be overcome with a midi host device so not too much of an issue. Only being able to map up to 16 controls as external modifiers is still better than none. In my use case, I am thinking of mapping CC values to 'available' parameters on efx blocks such as basic reverb, delay, chorus(vibrato) and drive blocks. This would kind of emulate what you might have on certain real amps and or pedals. Does anyone know if setting a control as a modifier, set it globally or locally when assigning that controller to an assignable (little yellow dot indicator) parameter in a block? In other words does that assignment carry over to the same block used in other presets or scenes? I assume not, so would need to assign that control modifier on on individual bases to each block/parameter/preset wanted. This might be most useful when creating custom presets and or scenes etc. Of course performance mode (PP) is the other option to adjust in real time. But if your FM9 is on the floor for foot switch changes, good luck.
Click to expand...
As an update to this post, does anyone recommend a CC midi knob/slider controller that is current?
 
I used an fcb 1010 over 5 pin connector with ace fx 2. You have 16 external controllers that you can in your midi controller affect to any cc you want. I never ever had a patch using more than 5-6 external controllers so what the heck? So of course this will work via the regular 5 point midi connector.
Using external controllers on your internal fm3 controls for every control per patch is the way to go.
Of you want USB midi you need an USB to midi interface like midisport 2x2
 
lauke-lux said:
I used an fcb 1010 over 5 pin connector with ace fx 2. You have 16 external controllers that you can in your midi controller affect to any cc you want. I never ever had a patch using more than 5-6 external controllers so what the heck? So of course this will work via the regular 5 point midi connector.
Using external controllers on your internal fm3 controls for every control per patch is the way to go.
Of you want USB midi you need an USB to midi interface like midisport 2x2
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply. I was really posting questions regarding midi CC knob type controllers and not midi foot switches. But I assume it would work the same. Will be on a hunt for such a midi knob controller that will have at least a 4x4 (16 knobs) or a 4x3 (12 knobs) that has the midi din in/out and USB connectivity.
 
Nsurround said:
As an update to this post, does anyone recommend a CC midi knob/slider controller that is current?
Click to expand...
It sounds like you're looking for a midi fighter twister. It's a midi controller with a bunch of real knobs.

However, like so many midi controllers these days, it's usb only. No din. So......you're right back where this thread started with no way to connect it to an FM3, unless you want to spend another $150 on a midi host device or echo the midi through a DAW.
 
GlennO said:
It sounds like you're looking for a midi fighter twister. It's a midi controller with a bunch of real knobs.

However, like so many midi controllers these days, it's usb only. No din. So......you're right back where this thread started with no way to connect it to an FM3, unless you want to spend another $150 on a midi host device or echo the midi through a DAW.
Click to expand...
Yeah I saw those and look very interesting as they are more or less current with OS etc. Would have to get a midi host probably for about $100 or so. I was also looking at the legacy Behringer B-Control Rotary BCR2000 USB/MIDI Control Surface. Has varying reviews and is of course older dealing with OS versions. But it looks like it would fit the bill too if it can be software edited and used as a standalone device without a computer.
 
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