Inserting outboard(pre+power amp) gear question

A

AwesomeJ

New Member
Hello sirs, ~

I've been using the FX3 for recording purposes and outdoor performances with a Other amp and pedalboard.
As I'm trying to integrate my gears together into one setup, I have a few questions. I like the tone from both the FX3 and the Synergy though.

I'm interested in integrating synergy amps to the the FX3 signal chain as following diagram.
based on page 31 of the FX3 manual might be working, but I'm concerned that the output from the power amp could potentially damage the FX3.
I've sketched a simple diagram below of what I'm aiming for, with cases 1 and 2, and I'd like to try both.

Question 1: I'm curious if it's okay to connect the output of the power amp to the input of the FX3 as in case 2.
Question 2: When connected as in case 1, I wonder if it's possible to turn off only the preamp inside the FX3.
 
Afaik, a Synergy st power amp does not have any kind of line out - it just has speaker outs which you definitely should NOT connect to anything but a compatible speaker. As mentioned above connecting a speaker out to Axfx WILL damage your Axfx.

Some tube power amps have built in attenuators with line outs for direct recording and/or emulated line outs with power power amp emulation for direct recording. Hi-headroom stereo power amps with minimal coloration typically do not have such features.
 
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The Synergy heads have an XLR line level out, but the stereo rackmount amp does not. You could do it with the XLR out on the heads, but not with the rackmount amp.
 
@sprint
Can i ask more?

- Guitar -> FX3(in1) -> FX3(out3) -> syn2 (in??) -> syn2(out??) -> FX3(in3) -> FX3(out1) -> PA

My question is what in and out port should i use? for example.
syn2 in : instrument in
syn2 out : main out
 
AwesomeJ said:
My question is what in and out port should i use? for example.
syn2 in : instrument in
syn2 out : main out
Click to expand...
I don't have synergy, but, my take looking at their manual and comparing to how 4CM is working for me with other types of gear, I'd say:

Guitar -> FX3(In1), FX3(out3) -> Syn2(In), Syn2(Out) -> FX3(In3), FX3(Out1) -> PA where:
  • Syn2(In) = The Syn2's main input jack on the front, or, the "Inst In" jack on the back panel.
  • Syn2(Out) = the "Fx Send" jack on the back panel (from the synergy manual: "9. FX SEND JACK- This output connects to the input of your effects unit.").
Set Ax3's output3 knob to full for unity gain on output3.

Turn the synergy module's volume/gain (and/or Syn2 main volume on front panel) down low at first connection, and gradually raise to level such that the internal Ax3 output1 meter (or preset levelling meter) in Axe-Edit is just hitting the red segment bar on harder strums.

Ideally, the cable from FX3(out3) -> Syn2(In) is a humbuster cable.

Loop 3 noise floor can be improved by increasing "Boost/Pad" on Output3 in the Axfx audio menu (not too high though as this can clip output3 depending on guitar settings - 6dB is optimal for me (reduces noise floor / no clipping).

In hi gain 4CM, I put a gate block after Input 3.

To add in synergy 5050: connect FX3(Out2) > Syn5050(In) with "Copy Output1" turned on for Output2 in the Ax3 audio menu (and no output2 block present in the preset grid).

Maybe a synergy guru here can confirm - main thing for safety is to stay away from plugging power amp speaker outputs into anything but compatible speakers.
 
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Admin M@ said:
A point not mentioned yet is that it is not possible to disable preamp modeling in the Axe-Fx III, which is something you show in your drawing. You can disable power amp modeling but not preamp modeling.
Click to expand...
Looking into Synergy a few times, I did not come across anything that definitively stated whether or not power amp coloration / dynamics is built into their modules - my sense is that it is baked in, given their suggested power amp solutions (ie 5050) are hi headroom / low coloration and some modules especially (Morgan) would be expected to have a lot of power amp coloration / dynamics. So given this assumption, I'd think no power amp model should necessarily need to be applied in Ax3 after synergy loop, but, if one is desired (ie to replicate the slight hi headroom / low coloration power tube effect of the syn 5050), the "tube pre" amp model could be used with it's mostly flat/unobtrusive preamp section.
 
sprint said:
I don't have synergy, but, my take looking at their manual and comparing to how 4CM is working for me with other types of gear, I'd say:

Guitar -> FX3(In1), FX3(out3) -> Syn2(In), Syn2(Out) -> FX3(In3), FX3(Out1) -> PA where:
  • Syn2(In) = The Syn2's main input jack on the front, or, the "Inst In" jack on the back panel.
  • Syn2(Out) = the "Fx Send" jack on the back panel (from the synergy manual: "9. FX SEND JACK- This output connects to the input of your effects unit.").
Set Ax3's output3 knob to full for unity gain on output3.

Turn the synergy module's volume/gain (and/or Syn2 main volume on front panel) down low at first connection, and gradually raise to level such that the internal Ax3 output1 meter (or preset levelling meter) in Axe-Edit is just hitting the red segment bar on harder strums.

Ideally, the cable from FX3(out3) -> Syn2(In) is a humbuster cable.

Loop 3 noise floor can be improved by increasing "Boost/Pad" on Output3 in the Axfx audio menu (not too high though as this can clip output3 depending on guitar settings - 6dB is optimal for me (reduces noise floor / no clipping).

In hi gain 4CM, I put a gate block after Input 3.

To add in synergy 5050: connect FX3(Out2) > Syn5050(In) with "Copy Output1" turned on for Output2 in the Ax3 audio menu (and no output2 block present in the preset grid).

Maybe a synergy guru here can confirm - main thing for safety is to stay away from plugging power amp speaker outputs into anything but compatible speakers.
Click to expand...
It is amazing. I am so appreciated.
 
sprint said:
Looking into Synergy a few times, I did not come across anything that definitively stated whether or not power amp coloration / dynamics is built into their modules - my sense is that it is baked in, given their suggested power amp solutions (ie 5050) are hi headroom / low coloration and some modules especially (Morgan) would be expected to have a lot of power amp coloration / dynamics. So given this assumption, I'd think no power amp model should necessarily need to be applied in Ax3 after synergy loop, but, if one is desired (ie to replicate the slight hi headroom / low coloration power tube effect of the syn 5050), the "tube pre" amp model could be used with it's mostly flat/unobtrusive preamp section.
Click to expand...
Dear sir Sprint,

Thanks for your help. I can hear good quality sound from my setup now. I had read your answers from various types of post. you are just amazing supervisor haha.

I have two additional questions. can you help me?

1. In3 level. too high
the level of IN3(from Synergy preamp) level is too high on the front panel eventhough i didn't set Synergy output volume too high just in the middle.
Is there a way to lower the in3 level without changing the tone?

2. can you recommend cabinet for thicker tone?
I use Steve via module from sinergy. that must be from Carvin Legacy. so I put the carvin legacy cabinet. tone is little bit too sharp for me.
below you can see my set up



- amp amp setting.png


- setup audio setup-audo.png

- in3
in3.png

- front levels

levels.jpg
 
Preset is looking good!

AwesomeJ said:
1. In3 level. too high
the level of IN3(from Synergy preamp) level is too high on the front panel eventhough i didn't set Synergy output volume too high just in the middle.
Is there a way to lower the in3 level without changing the tone?
Click to expand...
Below is the detailed process I use with my external preamps with some thoughts on what you might consider for your Synergy (again, I don't have Synergy so you'll need to correlate this with your own info / experimentations - perhaps some Synergy guru here can chime in)

  • Temporarily bypass your amp block (tube pre) with bypass mode on the amp block set to "Thru".
  • Open the preset levelling tool (Tools > Preset Levelling)
  • Now, with the Axfx amp block bypassed, and with Fx like delays / mods / reverbs bypassed, bring the external preamp's output level up slowly while playing typical riffs until the levelling meter is just touching the red zone. The physical input lights for input3 on the front of Axfx might flicker briefly on hard strums but that's ok.
- From what I understand of Synergy, it looks like the main front panel Syn-2 volume level is the most logical place to adjust Syn-2 output level after the desired synergy tone is in the ballpark. In the Synergy tone shaping stage, I'd expect there to be some back and forth tweaking between: 1: setting the module's channel gain / tone stack controls, 2: setting the module's channel output volumes, and 3: setting the syn-2's Sag control.​
- Syn-2 also has a physical preamp tube in it, so (tho the manual is sketchy), there appears to be some likely tonal interaction between the module and the Syn-2 head (the Syn-1/Syn-2 heads appear to be designed to add a little power amp character simulation to whatever syn module(s) are installed via its Sag control (and maybe via the Syn-2's tube also - info seems sketchy on this). So my tendency would be to get the syn tone mostly sorted 1st on each syn module channel (tho the syn-2 sag control is shared across all module channels so one sag value to suit both channels would need to be selected), then get the levelling right using the main Syn-2 volume control.​
  • Activate the amp block.
  • Set the Axfx amp block's level control to once again get the meters on the preset levelling tool just touching the red zone while playing typical riffs.
  • Repeat this for each scene assuming you are matching a separate scene to each channel of the external preamp (for each scene+external preamp channel, I tend to use a separate amp block channel with specific level settings for corresponding external preamp channel).

AwesomeJ said:
2. can you recommend cabinet for thicker tone?
I use Steve via module from sinergy. that must be from Carvin Legacy. so I put the carvin legacy cabinet. tone is little bit too sharp for me.
below you can see my set up
Click to expand...
I'd suggest auditioning various IRs to get into the ballpark of a cab tone you like, then maybe adding some tweaks / tricks to increase thickness. Couple of questions tho before I could offer further thoughts on cabs:
  • What are you monitoring your output with when dialing in your presets? (headphones?. studio monitors?, PA? Guitar speakers).
  • What are you monitoring you output with when using your finished presets?
  • Are your FX blocks (Delay, Chorus ...) running in stereo or mono? (side note: typically the cab block would be placed before delay - there's no rules and it may not make much difference depending on specific settings, but wondering if you had a reason for putting the cab after the delay).
Maybe attach your preset so we can take a closer look at your settings.
 
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