In Praise of the Virtual Capo ***FW 5.02b1***

[Simon Godden]

I used the virtual capo at practise last night to play Run to You by Bryan Adam, tuned up 2 semitones. Absolutely perfect. I tried it about 6 months ago and didn't find it usable. I had no problem with it last night at all. I was even soloing at the end with no issues at all. So nice not to have to bother with the physical capo.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

I used the virtual capo at practise last night to play Run to You by Bryan Adam, tuned up 2 semitones. Absolutely perfect. I tried it about 6 months ago and didn't find it usable. I had no problem with it last night at all. I was even soloing at the end with no issues at all. So nice not to have to bother with the physical capo.

Yeah; it’s so good now that I don’t even think about it, let alone worry about how I’m gonna have to compensate for the latency. Well done, FAS.

 

[utkanos]

the Virtual Capo is life changing for me on tunes that are in Eb and not having to tune down or switch guitars. I adore it for that reason.

I also went absurd and made a patch that's like -14 semitones just for fun

 

[Ugly Bunny]

the Virtual Capo is life changing for me on tunes that are in Eb and not having to tune down or switch guitars. I adore it for that reason.

I also went absurd and made a patch that's like -14 semitones just for fun

My most extreme one was a -5 semitones so I could play a Dream Theater 7-string song. I was quite impressed that I could play a very fast riff with such accuracy due to the low latency

 

[Ugly Bunny]

The VC is still great! My worries that fixing the tuner would break the VC were unfounded. It still sounds wonky with cleans, with no way to adjust the doubling/chorus/tremolo-like effect out of the sound, but for anything slightly overdriven to high gain, it’s wonderful. Still very low latency even up to 5 half steps down (maybe more, I didn’t test further).

I tried playing with the settings to get the clean sound not sounding so wonky, and anything but “fast” made it less warbly, but added other artifacts. So it still should only be used on clean tones in a full-band context. Not recommended for crystal clean arpeggiated chords.

As far as latency, it doesn’t feel any different so I didn’t run further tests. I may at some point.

 

[WillieD]

The VC is still great! My worries that fixing the tuner would break the VC were unfounded. It still sounds wonky with cleans, with no way to adjust the doubling/chorus/tremolo-like effect out of the sound, but for anything slightly overdriven to high gain, it’s wonderful. Still very low latency even up to 5 half steps down (maybe more, I didn’t test further).

I tried playing with the settings to get the clean sound not sounding so wonky, and anything but “fast” made it less warbly, but added other artifacts. So it still should only be used on clean tones in a full-band context. Not recommended for crystal clean arpeggiated chords.

As far as latency, it doesn’t feel any different so I didn’t run further tests. I may at some point.

I haven't downloaded the beta yet, but do you have a recommended a starting point for the VC? I've read that the smooth setting with tracking at 5 is a good start.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

I haven't downloaded the beta yet, but do you have a recommended a starting point for the VC? I've read that the smooth setting with tracking at 5 is a good start.

I didn’t find any setting for cleans that was any more satisfying as any other; if one thing got better, something else sounded worse. But for my uses, pitch tracking is set to fast and tracking is set to about 3. As a rhythm guitarist, I don’t need to worry about the occasional artifact that will be covered by overdrive anyway, most likely. I keep tracking at center for the one song I do have to play a clean intro to (Undone by Weezer).

 

[chrisni]

EDIT 3/26 - The VC is still great! My worries that fixing the tuner would break the VC were unfounded. It still sounds wonky with cleans, with no way to adjust the doubling/chorus/tremolo-like effect out of the sound, but for anything slightly overdriven to high gain, it’s wonderful. Still very low latency even up to 5 half steps down (maybe more, I didn’t test further).

EDIT 2/10: The VC in 5.00 official release rocks just as it did from the first beta.

EDIT: Despite my (and others') conjecture here and elsewhere, it has been confirmed by Cliff over at TGP that the pitch block was, in fact, intentionally improved in this update, despite there not being any mention of it anywhere and zero response in any VC-related thread. I had a chance to tag him in a post and his response was affirmative. Thank you, Cliff!!


OP:

After some deliberation about whether or not to update to 5.0b with a gig coming up this week, I decided to back up my presets and go for it. Other than the one bug I found in the virtual capo described here (which I'm now understanding is a known issue), I was pleasantly surprised to find that it works better and faster than in 4.1. I spent some time today taking latency measurements and going between 4.1 and 5.0b just to be sure and the results are in: the VC in 5.0 actually is better, even if there was no dedicated and focused improvement to the block. I can only assume some of the other under the hood changes in this update affected the workings of the VC (maybe the Pitch block as a whole; I didn't test anything else because I don't use anything else).

Equipment used for the test:

• Variax JTV-59 using magnetic pups
• Shure Beta 58
• Motu M4 Interface
• 2018 Mac Mini running Logic Pro X
• HX Stomp running FW 3.1
• FM3 running 4.1 and 5.0b

Methods:

1. Plugged the Beta 58 into channel 1 of the M4.
2. Plugged the guitar modelers' output into input 2 of the M4
3. Recorded tracks simultaneously by tapping the mic to a string near the bridge of the guitar between 5 and 10 times at 1 second intervals so the mic sound was recorded at the same time the magnetic pickups would pick up the sound.
4. Zoom in on WAV files to compare start of sound (mic signal) with the various modelers' & configurations' latency-delayed sound.
5. Control: plugged the guitar straight into input 2 and performed step 3 above, resulting in a 0ms latency difference of the measured signals.
6. Resolution: whole number latency in ms (in other words, you won't see 2.345ms latency).
7. Precision: Measurements are approximate with a margin of error of 1-2ms; when you zoom super far in to a WAV graphic, it can be difficult to determine precisely where the signal actually starts, but you can get amazingly close.
8. Note: I only tested pitch shifting by 1/2 step or 1 semitone.

Results:

• HX Stomp FW 3.1 blank preset: 2ms
• HX Stomp FW 3.1 Poly Capo: 20ms
• FAS FM3 FW 4.1 blank preset: 3ms
• FAS FM3 FW 4.1 VC-Only Preset: 20-80ms, occasional double/repeated notes
• FAS FM3 FW 4.1 VC in full preset: 20-65ms
• FAS FM3 FW 5.0b blank preset: 3ms
• FAS FM3 FW 5.0b VC-only preset: 20ms
• FAS FM3 FW 5.0b VC in full preset: 20ms
• Digitech Drop: 20ms
• Variax Electric model 1/2 down: 18ms
• Variax acoustic model 1/2 down: 24ms

Discussion:
I'm obsessed with latency; I'm very sensitive to it. But I'm very pleased with how well the VC works in 5.0b. I conducted similar tests a while ago with the Axe Fx III, Drop Pedal, HX Stomp, and the Variax. This was before I had my FM3 (video was recorded in March of last year; needs an update). I had also tested the HX's Poly Pitch, not the Poly Capo. I can't find exactly what the difference in terms of algorithm, if any, but there are fewer/different parameters in the Poly Capo.

My final analysis is that the current FM3 Virtual Capo is now up there among the best. It's much more stable than it was before. Cleans still sound a little wonky and warbly when pitch-shifted, but definitely still usable in a full band context (of if you wanna jam to a recording that's tuned down from standard. I'm very excited to get together with the band this weeks and see if it maintains the stability and consistency that it exhibited during my tests and jamming. I no longer feel the need to go back to my Axe Fx III & FC6 setup.

I know this has become a contentious topic on these and other forums, and I know the old-school people eschew tech like this and just bring extra guitars, tune down, or transpose the song to work in their current tuning, but at least this gives us one more option. I've been gigging the VC in 4.1 for quite a while so I've learned to work with its quirks. This improved stability will make using it much more relaxing.

All this to say: Even though the FM3 didn't receive the Axe Fx III/FM9's improved Pitch Block update, the Virtual Capo is, in fact, better; if only incrementally, it's still better than it was. I look forward to the full 5.0 release and whatever comes next!

Could you redo the tests with the current fw9 beta? Or maybe at full release, it's not too urgent. I am thinking about selling my Drop.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Could you redo the tests with the current fw9 beta? Or maybe at full release, it's not too urgent. I am thinking about selling my Drop.

Nah, it was a lot of work lol! To be honest, I’ve given up on Fractal ever really improving their VC. It was starting to get there, but it seems more people either don’t care, don’t use it, or think it’s fine than those of us who are critical, so I don’t blame them.

These days I use the QC since I’m now playing bass in my band. Fractal’s pitch shifting is still decent for overdriven guitar, but still very much sucks for clean guitar or bass guitar; QC doesn’t have the latency or artifacting issues Fractal has. But, for what it’s worth, I don’t think you need the Drop. Fractal’s is at least as good as the Drop, though I don’t remember how it fared for cleans or bass. But at least with Fractal, QC, and Helix, you can go up OR down and not have to have extra cables and power for the extra pedal. That alone was worth dealing with the extra latency and artifacts.

 

[Paulzx]

the Virtual Capo is life changing for me on tunes that are in Eb and not having to tune down or switch guitars. I adore it for that reason.

I also went absurd and made a patch that's like -14 semitones just for fun

Does that work for chords too? It wasn't convincing last time I tried it but I would love a Fractal solution for getting Eb on a standard tuned guitar

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Does that work for chords too? It wasn't convincing last time I tried it but I would love a Fractal solution for getting Eb on a standard tuned guitar

Yes, it works fine for chords if you're playing with any overdrive (and again, it's passable only in a full-band context for cleans or bass). I used it for Eb all the time. Sounds perfectly fine; latency isn't too bad nor are artifacts (since overdrive masks most artifacts).

 

[skolacki]

The VC is good for changing tuning to match recorded music that’s not tuned to standard. I like it. Sounds a little weird but not in a bad way. The latency gives it a spongy feel.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

The VC is good for changing tuning to match recorded music that’s not tuned to standard. I like it.

Yeah, this is the main reason I used it in a 90's and 2000's cover band. Much better than carrying multiple guitars, tuning a whole guitar mid show, playing in the incorrect key, etc. I've been in bands that played in Eb all the time for all songs because they thought it "sounded heavier," but I thought that was BS. To me, it sounds weird, since you've heard a song for decades in one key and then a band comes along and plays it in a slightly lower key. I think even non-musically-inclined people will feel something's "off" even if they can't put their finger on exactly what that something is.

Sounds a little weird but not in a bad way. The latency gives it a spongy feel.

This is the subjective aspect of what makes some pitch-shifters better or worse than others. In a full-band context, it works just fine. Just gets a little wonky, IMO, for personal practice - but honestly, I don't see any reason to use a pitch-shifter if you're just playing by yourself - unless you're trying to replicate a 7-string guitar with a 6-string, or a 5-string bass with a 4-string.

 

[Gasp100]

Nah, it was a lot of work lol! To be honest, I’ve given up on Fractal ever really improving their VC. It was starting to get there, but it seems more people either don’t care, don’t use it, or think it’s fine than those of us who are critical, so I don’t blame them.

These days I use the QC since I’m now playing bass in my band. Fractal’s pitch shifting is still decent for overdriven guitar, but still very much sucks for clean guitar or bass guitar; QC doesn’t have the latency or artifacting issues Fractal has. But, for what it’s worth, I don’t think you need the Drop. Fractal’s is at least as good as the Drop, though I don’t remember how it fared for cleans or bass. But at least with Fractal, QC, and Helix, you can go up OR down and not have to have extra cables and power for the extra pedal. That alone was worth dealing with the extra latency and artifacts.

IMHO Fractal's is MUCH Better than the Drop (which I'm forced to use a lot now because I currently don't have any FAS products). The OC is a "little" bit cleaner, but the other FX essentially suck in comparison to Fractal at this point so it's not even fair (speaking in guitarist terms, sorry just being honest!).
The FAS stuff having the level of modeling AND the level of FX AND the virtual cap that is better than any standalone product AND continuous development bests all other competitors.
And although I've learned to really enjoy capturing every nuance of my amazing real amps and drives with ToneX, QC/Nano Capture, etc. nothing sounds any better than my Strymon Iridium based "real" board and FAS is the only other option that brings a bit "more" to the table.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

IMHO Fractal's is MUCH Better than the Drop (which I'm forced to use a lot now because I currently don't have any FAS products). The OC is a "little" bit cleaner, but the other FX essentially suck in comparison to Fractal at this point so it's not even fair (speaking in guitarist terms, sorry just being honest!).
The FAS stuff having the level of modeling AND the level of FX AND the virtual cap that is better than any standalone product AND continuous development bests all other competitors.
And although I've learned to really enjoy capturing every nuance of my amazing real amps and drives with ToneX, QC/Nano Capture, etc. nothing sounds any better than my Strymon Iridium based "real" board and FAS is the only other option that brings a bit "more" to the table.

Yeah, if I could combine Fractal's effects with QC's pitch shifting, I'd be in guitar heaven lol!