In Praise of the Virtual Capo ***FW 5.02b1***

JD_ said:
my guess would be that they are aware of what changed and the change was intentional.
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I don't know lol... It wasn't mentioned in the release notes; in fact they straight up said that it was not a priority to address/improve, they flat-out said the Axe Fx III's Virtual Capo wouldn't run on the FM3. I know; this isn't necessarily saying that it couldn't be improved, but you'd think they would have mentioned something in the same breath that, while the Axe Fx III's algorithm won't run, we've made some updates and now you'll see it's much improved nonetheless. But nope. Crickets. Plus the fact that the tuner is a little wonky - they wouldn't have made the tuner worse intentionally, so I'm thinking there's a lot of behind the scenes talk and testing going on right now. My ego wants to believe that the reason we haven't had a beta 2 yet is that someone saw this thread and now they're all working on it to try to (a) figure out what they did that made it incredible and (b) fix the tuner WITHOUT ruining the VC. But again, more realistically? They probably haven't noticed me or this little nugget of wonderfulness they've created lol.

xCiaránx said:
Oh this is definitely much improved. I was finding the VC unusable for my purposes before because of latency and now it's working exactly as I'd hoped it would.
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Yeah, I was playing Alice In Chains' "Them Bones" last night with the band (Drop-D and down a half step via the Virtual Capo) and it was the tightest we'd ever played it. It was the first time we'd played it since I installed 5.0b1. I'm loving it - and I'm stoked to see so many other people corroborating my objective data with their subjective experience - the same subjective experience I had that led me to run the tests in the first place :)
 
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Similar experience here playing Misery Business, dropping from Drop D down to Drop C#. Previously the latency, and to some degree the inconsistency of the latency, was very troublesome. Fast palm mute parts would end up sounding like a mess and as if you were tripping over yourself while playing. Now it feels super tight playing with the band.
 
xCiaránx said:
Similar experience here playing Misery Business, dropping from Drop D down to Drop C#. Previously the latency, and to some degree the inconsistency of the latency, was very troublesome. Fast palm mute parts would end up sounding like a mess and as if you were tripping over yourself while playing. Now it feels super tight playing with the band.
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Yep; I'm actually looking forward to all our downtuned songs now, not just forcing my way through it reluctantly. Thanks for chiming in :)
 
Ugly Bunny said:
Yeah, I was playing Alice In Chains' "Them Bones" last night with the band (Drop-D and down a half step via the Virtual Capo) and it was the tightest we'd ever played it. It was the first time we'd played it since I installed 5.0b1. I'm loving it - and I'm stoked to see so many other people corroborating my objective data with their subjective experience - the same subjective experience I had that led me to run the tests in the first place :)
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Congrats on playing with a drummer who knows what 7/8 is supposed to sound and feel like. :)
 
Are you guys mostly using dirty tones? I used the VC to go down a whole step with a clean tone and no matter what the tracking was set to I could clearly hear the warbles playing a single C chord. The latency does seem slightly better though.
 
Kablesp said:
Are you guys mostly using dirty tones? I used the VC to go down a whole step with a clean tone and no matter what the tracking was set to I could clearly hear the warbles playing a single C chord. The latency does seem slightly better though.
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Where's the Pitch block in your chain?

Is your guitar well tuned?
 
I've tried it before the Amp, between Amp and cab, after the cab, and tried all of the input detection options. It sounded best first in the chain. I'm in tune and it sounds like it should with no vc, but I immediately hear the warble when it's on.

Maybe it's less noticeable using more gain, but if I can't use it with any sound it doesn't make sense to use it at all.

I was just curious, I have no gripes with the VC as I never really use it. I'll tune my guitar down if I need to. For what the unit is capable of doing, it's absolutely asinine to focus on what it doesn't do well.
 
Kablesp said:
I've tried it before the Amp, between Amp and cab, after the cab, and tried all of the input detection options. It sounded best first in the chain. I'm in tune and it sounds like it should with no vc, but I immediately hear the warble when it's on.

Maybe it's less noticeable using more gain, but if I can't use it with any sound it doesn't make sense to use it at all.

I was just curious, I have no gripes with the VC as I never really use it. I'll tune my guitar down if I need to. For what the unit is capable of doing, it's absolutely asinine to focus on what it doesn't do well.
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First in the chain is recommended for VC...

I don't use it because I have no need but there have been some cases reported in the past with some warbling when the guitar tuning and/or intonation wasn't great.
 
Kablesp said:
I've tried it before the Amp, between Amp and cab, after the cab, and tried all of the input detection options. It sounded best first in the chain. I'm in tune and it sounds like it should with no vc, but I immediately hear the warble when it's on.

Maybe it's less noticeable using more gain, but if I can't use it with any sound it doesn't make sense to use it at all.

I was just curious, I have no gripes with the VC as I never really use it. I'll tune my guitar down if I need to. For what the unit is capable of doing, it's absolutely asinine to focus on what it doesn't do well.
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I use it first in the chain, right after the input block and set the input to 'smooth'. Most of what I play has some hair on it, and for me, any warbling is less detectable with more gain. In that scenario, particularly with a full band, I don't really hear any warbling.

I used it at church today, pitched up +3 for a clean-ish to medium gain song (and granted, I used a Plexi model with a volume block dialed way back to 'clean' it up, so it wasn't super clean), and it worked pretty well. I'm also using a lot of delay and reverb there, so that probably masks any warbling as well. I told the sound guy I was changing keys in my FM3 and he looked surprised and said "Oh, really?". So I take it he didn't hear anything concerning.

In the past, I've used VC in my Axe-FX III with my rock cover band to drop a half step, and I think the FM3 VC in its current beta state will be fine there too. I just ran through Sabbath's 'Into the Void' with a -3 and it sounded great.

I also just tried it with a really clean amp model with no effects, and I do hear it more, but for me, in full band scenario, with a little gain, it's fine.
 
Kablesp said:
Are you guys mostly using dirty tones? I used the VC to go down a whole step with a clean tone and no matter what the tracking was set to I could clearly hear the warbles playing a single C chord. The latency does seem slightly better though.
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Douglas Costa said:
Try a compressor before VC, it will help the strings sound more even, causing less warble at decay.
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I just plain doesn't sound great with cleans, but it is usable. Again, the only clean things I play with it is the intro to Weezer's "Sweater Song." It's not great, but full band it's fine. I haven't tried @Douglas Costa 's tip, but I may play with that tomorrow. I'm not sure if my presets can fit a compressor, DSP-wise, but we'll see. It does make sense that a more consistent signal being fed to the VC would make the warbles less prominent.
 
Seems most of you guys are referencing your experiences with the VC in a live setup. I can totally see the latency and warbling being masked behind gain, other instruments and sheer volume live that would make it acceptable to use.

I use my FM3 mostly to record, and use either my studio monitors or a set of headphones to listen back and record. Warbling aside, the latency makes this effect unusable to record. It's even more noticeable when using a click track, especially if you want a tight performance. The latency makes me feel like I'm always trying to catch up to the click track which makes me rush the take.

That's why I don't even bother with it, and while some of you get acceptable results (I'm skeptical of those who say they can't hear or feel a difference using it... It's a huge difference even at a whole step down) I personally cannot get results that are acceptable to me.

I absolutely don't care because it takes me 2 minutes to tune my guitar to what I need.

The FM3 is amazing, and while the VC falls short, they tried. Sometimes I have a hard time grasping the fact that people are literally complaining that the FM3 can't tune their guitars down for them.
 
Kablesp said:
The FM3 is amazing, and while the VC falls short, they tried. Sometimes I have a hard time grasping the fact that people are literally complaining that the FM3 can't tune their guitars down for them
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I don't think the VC was ever "designed" to be used as a recording tool.

It is same for the Digitech Drop - it's a "get out of jail free" card for live performances and jamming.
 
Kablesp said:
Seems most of you guys are referencing your experiences with the VC in a live setup. I can totally see the latency and warbling being masked behind gain, other instruments and sheer volume live that would make it acceptable to use.

I use my FM3 mostly to record, and use either my studio monitors or a set of headphones to listen back and record. Warbling aside, the latency makes this effect unusable to record. It's even more noticeable when using a click track, especially if you want a tight performance. The latency makes me feel like I'm always trying to catch up to the click track which makes me rush the take.

That's why I don't even bother with it, and while some of you get acceptable results (I'm skeptical of those who say they can't hear or feel a difference using it... It's a huge difference even at a whole step down) I personally cannot get results that are acceptable to me.

I absolutely don't care because it takes me 2 minutes to tune my guitar to what I need.

The FM3 is amazing, and while the VC falls short, they tried. Sometimes I have a hard time grasping the fact that people are literally complaining that the FM3 can't tune their guitars down for them.
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Yeah, it's definitley not meant for recording, and I, too, don't believe anyone who says they don't notice any latency. My point with this thread was just how improved it is in this beta FW from 4.1which, while still barely passable in a live band context, was not great. This one actually is great (not perfect, but still amazing); I literally find myself jamming in dropped tunings because the latency doesn't stop me from feeling the groove. But yeah, never in a million years would I consider trying to record with it, unless it was just to record a jam for later recording using actually retuned guitars.

As to your last point, that's literally what it's designed to do - tune the whole guitar up or down. It's good enough that some pros (like myself) have come to rely on it, yet the latency can still be an issue for some and the artifacts with cleans make it unpleasant at times - AS A GUITARIST. But I guess the point is that as a tool, it helps to keep the show going and the music flowing so a band like mine can go from one song to the next to the next to the next without needing to retune while allowing us to play songs in the recorded keys & positions; some that were recorded with guitars tuned a half-step down, some not, some tuned up, etc. As such, where it really shines is how much the AUDIENCE really appreciates it, whether they realize it or not. It really is an invaluable tool; people (including myself) were complaining about the Axe Fx III's VC and then one day they fixed it and it was on par with (became?) the industry standard (Digitech Drop).

Now, mysteriously and without mention or even the briefest of acknowledgement by FAS, the VC in FW 5.0b1 is also on par with the Axe Fx III and Digitech Drop. And this is a very good thing for people like me who rely on it to tune our guitars down for us ;)
 
Kablesp said:
The latency makes me feel like I'm always trying to catch up to the click track which makes me rush the take.
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I love that you mention this because this is a regular counter-argument to latency. Some have said, "I can just compensate for the latency by playing a little ahead," as if it's as easy as just playing an exact and consistent 23ms ahead of when you think you should be playing were there no latency. It's just not possible. It always ends up, as you point out, feeling like you're lagging, then rushing, then lagging, etc.
 
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