Wish IIC++

[yek]

So not just tapers. Aha, that’s new info.

 

[Admin M@]

It was added back in at Metallica’s request, but it’s not an actual IIC++.

Correct. They provided us with certain unique details and Cliff created the model. I was on site at Metallica HQ during this process.

 

[James Freeman]

Correct. They provided us with certain unique details and Cliff created the model. I was on site at Metallica HQ during this process.

Was it specific technical details like actual electronic components inside the amp or auditory details like "make it gainier and tighter when on 7"?

One is not like the other and I would assume it was more of the latter, unless they let Cliff dissect Hetfields ++ right there on the cold floor of Metallica HQ, which is unlikely, otherwise we would already have accurate information of the actual ++ mod inside his actual amp and make a true 'non-metallica-specific' ++ model.

 

[Crummy]

Correct. They provided us with certain unique details and Cliff created the model. I was on site at Metallica HQ during this process.

I'm pretty sure all of the metallica iic+ heads were upgraded to c++ at some point. Once they had figured out Kirks special "Lead A" iic+ long head was actually a iic++. It might be in the new messengers book or somewhere else.

 

[rrhoads17]

I think it’s interesting that so many people equate the 2C+ sound with Metallica because I’m pretty sure they used Jose Marshalls more than Mesas, or a blend of the two (along with the VH4 and Triaxis in later years). I don’t think they ever used strictly the Crunch Berries amp by itself. The 2C+ is virtually unusable unless you want a bone clean sound or if you’re scooping the mids for the metal thing, which it does well. There’s no good in-between sounds, and Mesas are notoriously hard to service and repair. I don’t really get the hype with these 2C reissues. Good thing Fractal models them very well.

 

[SalazarMcMantis]

I think it’s interesting that so many people equate the 2C+ sound with Metallica because I’m pretty sure they used Jose Marshalls more than Mesas, or a blend of the two (along with the VH4 and Triaxis in later years). I don’t think they ever used strictly the Crunch Berries amp by itself. The 2C+ is virtually unusable unless you want a bone clean sound or if you’re scooping the mids for the metal thing, which it does well. There’s no good in-between sounds, and Mesas are notoriously hard to service and repair. I don’t really get the hype with these 2C reissues. Good thing Fractal models them very well.

Master of Puppets is almost entirely the IIC+. Flemming has discussed his notes at length and even did a masterclass late last year to recreate his 3 albums. The whole “slaving to a Marshall” he said was maybe sometimes used for leads.

AJFA was pretty close as well, but they added in the Quad preamp for some songs.

As far as Jose Marshall’s, KEA was supposedly one but that’s never been able to be confirmed. RTL was a JMP 2203, assumed to be stock as it was a rental. The next time a Jose appears is Bob Rock’s during the black album.

 

[Crummy]

Master of Puppets is almost entirely the IIC+. Flemming has discussed his notes at length and even did a masterclass late last year to recreate his 3 albums. The whole “slaving to a Marshall” he said was maybe sometimes used for leads.

AJFA was pretty close as well, but they added in the Quad preamp for some songs.

As far as Jose Marshall’s, KEA was supposedly one but that’s never been able to be confirmed. RTL was a JMP 2203, assumed to be stock as it was a rental. The next time a Jose appears is Bob Rock’s during the black album.

I feel flemming does not even get close to the the original guitar tracks if you watch the new Harvestor tracking video its weak. James slaved the iic++ into his new mesa boogie strategy 400 he would've got at the same time as the quad preamp. Its even written in the flemming notes for multiple songs "slave 10" "channel A 1.5 channel B 2". You can see his strategy in the making of the black album.

 

[SalazarMcMantis]

I feel flemming does not even get close to the the original guitar tracks if you watch the new Harvestor tracking video its weak. James slaved the iic++ into his new mesa boogie strategy 400 he would've got at the same time as the quad preamp. Its even written in the flemming notes for multiple songs "slave 10" "channel A 1.5 channel B 2". You can see his strategy in the making of the black album.

Flemming did not mix AJFA and he has stated that the guitar tone they achieved during tracking is wildly different from what was on the finished album. He has said their original tone was much closer to MOP, but he didn’t apply any board EQ like he did with MOP. Some crazy amounts of EQing was done during mixing that we may never get to see. The kick drum for example had a baked in EQ during tracking, then during mixing Lars requested the EQ be added again, not realizing it was already there, which further accentuated the super scooped and clicky sound we hear.

During the masterclass he wasn’t necessarily attempting to recreate what we heard on the record, but what they produced with Flemming involved. RTL is the best example of that since he did do the tracking AND the mixing, and his recreation of that was very close, even with a different room being used. For AJFA he even included bass guitar, which as we all know is practically nonexistent on the album. They did use an Ampeg SVT and 810 for the 3 recreations, which isn’t accurate as he said the Mesa D180 and custom cabs were very difficult to find, but it still sounded pretty damn close. They also used the Aria for AJFA rather than a Wal which was actually used.

I watched the full masterclass, there’s so much more than the little snippets they posted on social media for marketing.

 

[SalazarMcMantis]

Here’s two clips from the masterclass.
Puppets
Ktulu

 

[Crummy]

Flemming did not mix AJFA and he has stated that the guitar tone they achieved during tracking is wildly different from what was on the finished album. He has said their original tone was much closer to MOP, but he didn’t apply any board EQ like he did with MOP. Some crazy amounts of EQing was done during mixing that we may never get to see. The kick drum for example had a baked in EQ during tracking, then during mixing Lars requested the EQ be added again, not realizing it was already there, which further accentuated the super scooped and clicky sound we hear.

During the masterclass he wasn’t necessarily attempting to recreate what we heard on the record, but what they produced with Flemming involved. RTL is the best example of that since he did do the tracking AND the mixing, and his recreation of that was very close, even with a different room being used. For AJFA he even included bass guitar, which as we all know is practically nonexistent on the album. They did use an Ampeg SVT and 810 for the 3 recreations, which isn’t accurate as he said the Mesa D180 and custom cabs were very difficult to find, but it still sounded pretty damn close. They also used the Aria for AJFA rather than a Wal which was actually used.

I watched the full masterclass, there’s so much more than the little snippets they posted on social media for marketing.

Thats fair but the strategy 400 was used during tracking which flemming was present for, its in the notes for Harvestor. Sure its as accurate as they could get with what they had, but James slaved to the strategy for a reason. He could feel and hear a difference on the mic before mixing. If you want to get as accurate as possible before mixing its worth trying.

 

[SalazarMcMantis]

Thats fair but the strategy 400 was used during tracking which flemming was present for, its in the notes for Harvestor. Sure its as accurate as they could get with what they had, but James slaved to the strategy for a reason. He could feel and hear a difference on the mic before mixing. If you want to get as accurate as possible before mixing its worth trying.

Yes for those songs that would be more accurate, but my original comment was a rebuttal to the thought that there was likely no pure IIC++ on any of the records, which is incorrect according to Flemming. As far as the masterclass, they worked with what they had so not having the pieces like the D180 and custom cabs, and the strategy poweramp were the sacrifices they made. It would have been cool to hear the final mix of AJFA recreated, but the mixing engineer would have made a far greater difference than the strategy poweramp.

Edit - realizing something I said earlier. “AJFA was pretty close as well” that was referring to AJFA still being pretty heavy on the IIC++ and in some cases possibly pure IIC++, not that the masterclass was “pretty close” to recreating those tones.