If you own a BF Fender Amp (or re-issue)...

[Zen Guitar]

If you own an actual Blackface era Fender amp or one of the re-issues, as well as your Axe-Fx...

Have you been able to convincingly dial in such a direct recording tone into your Axe-Fx? If so, would you mind sharing your approach and/or settings? I'm mainly interested in tones with the bright switch enabled (BF Deluxe owners, this is hardwired in already, you can't switch it off without removing the cap).

I personally own a BF Super Reverb, which is IMHO, the finest amp for blues I have ever heard. It is loaded with two ceramic 10"s and two alnico 10"s and really nails tones ala SRV, John Mayer (he uses SR's sometimes in addition or in substitution for his Two Rocks), and Robben Ford's clean tones (he uses a BF SR along with his Dumble). With the bright switch on, this amp has a sparkle, chime, and openness that I am finding it difficult to dial with the Axe-Fx. Have gotten best results so far with Brownface amp, lots of EQ, and a combination of the 2x12 blue and the 4x10 bass. Sadly, there is no BF type 4x10 cab model.

The reason I am asking folks who own one of these amps, is that my hope is that they have spent some time dialing with the real amp next to their Axe for direct comparison and who might better understand the elusive qualities that I am talking about.

Also, to avoid some well-meant, but unnecessary help from people... I am not brand new to the Axe-Fx or tweaking sounds in general. I have spent a lot of time with my settings and have auditioned most of what is relevant to my cause in the Axe-change. I understand that I am dialing in a simulation of a recording of an amp rather than that amp in the room with me. What I am looking for is little secrets or "AHA!" moments from people who are after similar tones and also have the real deal next to them for comparison while tweaking.

Thanks!
-Matt

 

[mik]

What if you took a clean power amp (solid state) and while keeping poweramp sims in the Axe enabled and speaker sims disabled and try to run your signal out of Axe-FX through the poweramp and into your own speakers of your Fender SR ... May give you a few ideas or might get you closer to your sound?

Just an idea ...

Mik.

 

[Zen Guitar]

This is a very good idea... I'll have to give it a shot. Thanks, Mik! It will at least allow me to separate what is a good facsimile of the amp versus the speaks.

 

[Deltones]

Matt,

I have a 64 Blackface Showman, and I'm in the same boat as you i.e. that Fender chime is pretty hard to get on the Axe-Fx for direct recording. It's not that the Fender models don't sound good, it's that I don't believe they're completely there as far as THAT sound is concerned.

Might be that more tweaking is needed. I said it before in other threads, but for me so far, the hardest tones to get on the Ultra are the sounds I hear from 50's, early 60's rock'n'roll, pop and doowop.

 

[MrShredX]

I had a '66 BF Super that I sold to help fund the AxeFX...and I regret it...I can't dial it in to save my life...I'm not a newbie to good tone or tweaking preamps, but I can't duplicate my BF Fender tones...I'm honestly frustrated beyond belief right now with my Standard

 

[Deltones]

I had a '66 BF Super that I sold to help fund the AxeFX...and I regret it...I can't dial it in to save my life...I'm not a newbie to good tone or tweaking preamps, but I can't duplicate my BF Fender tones...I'm honestly frustrated beyond belief right now with my Standard

Ah but you see, that was your first mistake. You sell your annoying little brother. You sell your engagement ring. You sell your soul. But you do not sell a BF anything :mrgreen:

 

[joegold]

Personally speaking...
I think it's a mistake to try to use the Axe to clone some other sound that you're familiar with and love.
All it it can do is to come close. Very close in most instances, but only close.
The Axe version will be very musical sounding too. And it will be *way* more versatile than the original.

 

[Deltones]

Personally speaking...
I think it's a mistake to try to use the Axe to clone some other sound that you're familiar with and love..

But you know that will be the natural reflex of every tone freaks around here. We almost always go with what please us and is familiar.

All it it can do is to come close. Very close in most instances, but only close.
The Axe version will be very musical sounding too. And it will be *way* more versatile than the original

But sometimes Joe, "so close" is missing the critical part. With Fender, the critical part is that chime.

But for the rest of you sentence, I do agree that the Axe-Fx is very musical and versatile.

 

[joegold]

Personally speaking...
I think it's a mistake to try to use the Axe to clone some other sound that you're familiar with and love..

But you know that will be the natural reflex of every tone freaks around here. We almost always go with what please us and is familiar.

All it it can do is to come close. Very close in most instances, but only close.
The Axe version will be very musical sounding too. And it will be *way* more versatile than the original

But sometimes Joe, "so close" is missing the critical part. With Fender, the critical part is that chime.

But for the rest of you sentence, I do agree that the Axe-Fx is very musical and versatile.

Well if you do want to get that "chime" (whatever that is) out of the Axe there's a very good chance that something like it is possible. I think the Fender amp sims and cab sims are pretty convincing myself.

Are you trying to get this sound into a FRFR system or is this for live playing through a guitar cabinet?
If the latter, then you should use a Fender cabinet with the exact same speakers as the amp you're trying to clone. Turn the cab sims off in the Axe. I'd use a high quality solid state power amp too. Keep the power amp sim on in the Axe.
If the former, then you'll need a very high quality FRFR power amp/speaker combination. Keep the cab sims on.

What *are* you using to monitor the Axe with?

Are you aware of which Fender amps the Axe's amp models are based on?
Are you aware of which Fender speaker cabs the Axe's cab sims are based on?
There's a list at the Wiki.
Don't be afraid to use non-Fender amp sims to capture the sound you're after. You might find it in one of the Fractal amp sims or the USA amp sims or the OD Speacial amp sims. Etc.

Are you trying to get a clean Fender sound or slight breakup?
For the latter, have you downloaded the "Scott's Blackface" preset from axechange.net yet?

What *have* you tried and what didn't you like about it?

 

[joegold]

Matt,

I have a 64 Blackface Showman, and I'm in the same boat as you i.e. that Fender chime is pretty hard to get on the Axe-Fx for direct recording. It's not that the Fender models don't sound good, it's that I don't believe they're completely there as far as THAT sound is concerned.

Might be that more tweaking is needed. I said it before in other threads, but for me so far, the hardest tones to get on the Ultra are the sounds I hear from 50's, early 60's rock'n'roll, pop and doowop.

I hope you're comparing the sound of a mic'd up 64 Blackface Showman through a FRFR system and a sim of a Fender amp from the Axe through a FRFR system rather than comparing the sound of a the Fender amp in a room with the Axe through a FRFR system. The latter is not a fair comparison. Most people around here are pretty satisfied with the former.

If you do want to come close to getting the sound of that Fender amp in the room via the Axe, then my advice would be to use a speaker cab of the exact same type with the exact same speakers and run the Axe thru a SS power amp with the Axe's cab sims off/power amp sims on.

 

[joegold]

I had a '66 BF Super that I sold to help fund the AxeFX...and I regret it...I can't dial it in to save my life...I'm not a newbie to good tone or tweaking preamps, but I can't duplicate my BF Fender tones...I'm honestly frustrated beyond belief right now with my Standard

What type of monitoring system are you running yuour Axe through?
Are you frustrated in a studio setting or live?

With FRFR which cab sims have you tried? I like the "410 Bass" cab sim for Super type tones myself.
I'd also probably start with the "Brownface" amp model.
Hope that doesn't seem too obvious. I'm just throwin' stuff out there.

 

[Zen Guitar]

I agree that the chime is one of the more difficult aspects to dial with regards to the Fender simms. As intially mentioned, I've had best luck thus far using the Brownface amp with the 2x12 Blue and 4x10 Bass cabs mic'd with the Royer mic simms. I've had to do a lot of EQing, though. I've tried the other Fender amp simms and I've tried using the BF type tonestack with the Brownface, but although it has more scoop, it doesn't sound as good IMHO. I've instead added some scoop, some air, and some top end sparkle with EQ. For me, the main challenges are getting the tones to have the right sparkle in the top end, the right sort of elastic, bubbly scoop, and the right sense of air without getting thin or shrill. Part of what I'm noticing is that the switching in and out the bright doesn't seem to have the same overall effect as on the real world amp, so I need to experiment more with the advanced parameters there. Also started experimenting with bias. I like my real world BF amp biased a touch hot. I need to make opportunity to create an IR of my actual cab (front and back, near and farfield), but don't have the reference mic or ideal recording conditions. Going to see what I can do in the not so distant future, though. I'll be sure to share when I do. I have the 4x10 loaded with half Alnico and have Ceramics, which I find to be a sweet pairing for my Super Reverb.

I'm really hoping that Cliff eventually tweaks the Fender simms and hopefully adds a BF Super Reverb simm and matching cab. This really is a landmark sound that I think many people would enjoy. I know he can up the ante as I've heard other amp modeling software that nails the Fender stuff better (putting flame suit on!). Talking with other Axe Fx users outside of this forum, I've found that many are also feeling that the Fender simms are not the Axe Fx's strongest point.


Cheers,
-Matt

Personally speaking...
I think it's a mistake to try to use the Axe to clone some other sound that you're familiar with and love..

But you know that will be the natural reflex of every tone freaks around here. We almost always go with what please us and is familiar.

All it it can do is to come close. Very close in most instances, but only close.
The Axe version will be very musical sounding too. And it will be *way* more versatile than the original

But sometimes Joe, "so close" is missing the critical part. With Fender, the critical part is that chime.

But for the rest of you sentence, I do agree that the Axe-Fx is very musical and versatile.

 

[joegold]

You folks who are looking for more Fender "chime"....

Have you tried raising the Damp control on the various Fender amp sims?
Raising the damping and using a bit of Presence as well as engaging the bright switch on the Treble control, in moderation, (even if the original whose amp model you're working with had no bright switch or presence control) might give you more of what you're looking for.

It's worth a shot.

 

[merlin17]

I've tried to match my '68 Vibrolux with the Axe yesterday.
Interestingly my closest match was with the Eggie (really close, maybe I like it even a tad better than the Vibrolux...), then the Brownface, then the ODS1, far away with the Blackface...
All of the sims sound more "even" (for a lack of a better word) than my Vibrolux. IMO it's got to do with EQ, but more so with response.

If Cliff finds the secret of the Chime I'd love to have it in there. ;-)