IEM frustration...

It doesn't really matter what the Mackie manual says about the matter. Hitting 0 dB (let alone "slightly above" on digital equipment is outright bad idea. Even being as high as -3 dB is somewhat risky because there may be fast transients that those LEDs won't show, they aren't fast enough, but your sound will get harsher and there will be artifacts. You may not even here them distinctly, but the overall sound will be worse. 0 dB is too much.
 
It doesn't really matter what the Mackie manual says about the matter. Hitting 0 dB (let alone "slightly above" on digital equipment is outright bad idea. Even being as high as -3 dB is somewhat risky because there may be fast transients that those LEDs won't show, they aren't fast enough, but your sound will get harsher and there will be artifacts. You may not even here them distinctly, but the overall sound will be worse. 0 dB is too much.

Keep in mind the comment on 0dB from the manual is for the channel fader (Output), not the input Gain... The part that is confusing a bit is that the delineation between the green/yellow on the channel strip (for input gain level) is at about the same point as 0dB on the fader - but I don't know that it is 0dB and I suspect it is not. As mentioned in my previous post, I will confirm that when I am in front of it.

Additionally, I don't think Mackie is new to the mixer business, so I would give them a bit of credibility on knowing how their own digital mixer is supposed to work ;)
 
I would give them a bit of credibility on knowing how their own digital mixer is supposed to work

You are of course free to do whatever you want. I would still try lowering levels if I were you. Digital equipment doesn't sound good when signal levels are too high.
 
Sure... I will be checking it out.

Also, wireless systems often have limiters. They aren't super high class mastering masterpieces, but rather quick hacks to protect your hearing just in case. If the signal coming in is too hot, it will sound like crap. Or maybe there's some sort of sound "enhancement" going on. So double check your settings, try to disable everything.
 
Also, wireless systems often have limiters. They aren't super high class mastering masterpieces, but rather quick hacks to protect your hearing just in case. If the signal coming in is too hot, it will sound like crap. Or maybe there's some sort of sound "enhancement" going on. So double check your settings, try to disable everything.

Yes... the ones we have do... there are 4 "levels from 3 - off, with 3 being the default. The manual says "leave it at 3 (maximum)". Of course, I also wondered if that might be a contributing factor. I can try reducing or disabling that in a "controlled" setting.

Seems kind of dumb to have a setting which says to never change ;)
 
The part that is confusing a bit is that the delineation between the green/yellow on the channel strip (for input gain level) is at about the same point as 0dB on the fader - but I don't know that it is 0dB and I suspect it is not.

They may use 32 bit floating point processing in the digital domain, which gives 16800 dB of head room or some such nonsense - I'm not sure about the exact number, it's infinite headroom for all practical purposes. Like in some DAWs you can clip individual tracks and have no clipping... Up until the point where all that insanity hits a converter in a physical output.
 
Ok, so checking the manual, the input gain display meter ranges from -90dBFS to -3dBFS:

Red (clipping): -3dBFS
Green to Yellow: -18dBFS
Green: -90dBFS

So, all of our inputs were set as much as possible put the input meter right at the top of the green to yellow - so around -18dBFS (by the way, I don't know what the difference is between dB and dBFS :)).

I'm still a bit confused because looking at my saved mix session, the input gain control used in conjunction with the trim to adjust input gain is set to +12dB for both my Axe Fx inputs, but the meter is obviously not at +12. I'm guessing that is just the amount of gain that is unpadded from the input?

I'm new to this level of sound engineering, so trying to learn all this stuff as best I can.
 
Ok, due to other commitments tonight I will probably not get to all the tests.

BUT I did do one so far: Axe Fx directly connected to AT Transmitter. And the results are very good! Using either the headphone output of the Transmitter OR the wireless receiver, the quality is very close to the sound directly from Axe Fx headphone jack.

Played around with various attenuation on the AT, I didn't notice much difference but when using the wireless, reducing the Limiter setting seemed to make it sound just a touch better.

Next test will be to bypass the splitter...

I'll report back with further updates, but i suspect it's gain staging in the mixer.
 
On my Sennheiser iem I had to turn down the transmitter to -40db to keep them from distorting and sounding bad. I have my Axe Fx turned down low to so its just a matter of getting set just right hopefully. Good luck
 
reducing the Limiter setting seemed to make it sound just a touch better.

If it changes anything then the signal is hot enough to trigger it. This is not good quality wise.

by the way, I don't know what the difference is between dB and dBFS

dB is a ratio, to put it in simplified terms. dBFS is used to measure digital signals, it's level relative to full scale. In the case of 24 bits, full scale is 0 dB to -144 dB. If it's hotter than 0 dB, it cannot be assigned a number, it's beyond the range, an error. It's like dividing by zero in a way. So you never allow digital signal to go beyond 0 dB. Or even approach it, because whatever your meters show, there are fast transients that are hotter. You want see them, as the meters aren't fast enough, but they are there and will cause clipping. Usually they make the sound kind of harsh.

For analog (like for the inputs of your mixer), dBu is used. That's the level of signal relative to some reference voltage. 0 dBu is exactly that reference voltage (0.775 V). It doesn't mean clipping unless that's the maximum your mixer can handle. +6 dBu will be twice that voltage. Pro gear should handle more than that, maybe up to +20 dBu (close to 8 V), but that differs.

Your Axe is capable of outputting up to +20 dBu, your mixer - I don't know, but it should be able to handle that, your wireless most probably will start clipping at +10 or so. So if your Axe outputs +12, that'll be some 3 V hitting your input mixer, and after passing the converter it'll become -5 dBFS or so, and, assuming everything is set to unity gain, it'll output 3V, and will cause your wireless to clip.

Otherwise a dB is a dB is a dB. :)
 
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Ok, bypassing the splitter made no difference in the sound. I also checked the sound via the headphone jack on the mixer... Same result.

So next I decided to try lowering the input gain, which also didn't help.

After that, I tried raising the input gain until I was frequently crossing from green to yellow on the meter. That seems to be the key. I think it's about as good as I'm going to get. Over all the input gain was increased by 6dB.

I also ended up adjusting the Transmitter's Trim by -6dB as I was still noticing that there was a small difference in the sound with the Limiter engaged on the Receiver.

Interestingly, the Trim control only adjusts the level from the transmitter to the receiver and has no affect on the headphone jack on the transmitter, but it is reflected in a reduction on the meters on the front of the transmitter.

When I get more time, I may switch the the receiver's input attenuation switches from 0 to -10dB and then readjust the Trim.

Thanks everyone for the input and suggestions. I'm feeling a lot better about things now!
 
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