How to gain stage with drives

J

Jens973

Inspired
Hi all,

I am trying to get Band-Commander from clean to mean by drive pedals and even stacking them. But same "problem" also happens with other amps that start at "clean".

What happens is that I need to turn down drive volume to 1.8 or so to not have a significant jump in volume.

Is this normal? Or there are other approaches?
 
Even if the volume (or any control) is a 0.1, it’s still normal.
I have to turn the Klon to 2 for it to be at unity. But I also had to do that with any Klon(e) I’ve owned.
All in all, don’t worry about what the numbers say. As long as it sounds like you want it.
 
The volume boost is replicating real life behaviour of a boosting pedal into an amp set very clean (my non digital pedals + amps do the same). Setting the amp at eob combined with riding guitar volume can reduce volume jumps on drive activation, but sometimes one wants a super clean amp starting point at max guitar volume with the option to engage an OD that pushes hard on the amp, in which case the following solution can be handy for volume jump handling:

Once drives are dialed in with respect to cumulative drive+amp tone, a filter block can be added after the amp block to compensate for any unwanted volume differences resulting from drive block activation. The filter block is sync'd to mimic the same bypass / channel behaviour as the drive block so it goes on/off and/or switches channel at the same time as the drive block (via using same bypass midi CC#, and/or channel midi CC#, and/or initial state within scenes) - I use this technique in many of my presets - works well, simple to deploy, has low cpu cost, and does not disrupt amp settings. An added benefit is that if you also want a bit of post amp eq added when the drive block engages, you can have that configured into the post amp filter block as well. You'll need 1 post amp filter block corresponding to, and sync'd to, each drive block used (I tend to use just 1 though since multiple drive block boost combinations can become unwieldy to coordinate).
 
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It all depends on where you want the clipping to occur.

If you want clipping only from the drive pedal (as opposed to the amp or the next pedal in the chain) then increase the drive on the pedal and reduce the volume (down to unity gain) to avoid a volume increase from an amp with lots of headroom.

Alternatively, you could use a second channel in the amp block with the same settings except for a reduction in the amp block level (output) to compensate for the increased input from the drive pedal. Using Scenes you can co-ordinate the engaging of the drive block with the switching of the amp channel.

When using "real" single channel amps, then using pedals is necessary to get from very clean to very dirty. However, with Fractal products you can turn any single channel amp into a four-channel amp so that you need not rely solely on pedals to provide the range from clean to dirty.

Many players deliberately set their clean sound with the amp closer to its headroom limit (edge of breakup) so that with either their guitar volume low or light picking they have a clean sound, but turning up their guitar volume and/or picking harder causes the amp to begin to break up. Then when they engage a drive pedal in front of the amp, the increased output from the pedal (above unity gain) will push the amp into overdrive. This may have some volume increase, but much less because the amp is compressing when being overdriven. Again, if the volume increase is too much but you prefer the sound to the first option (getting all clipping from the drive block) then use a 2nd amp channel to compensate at the output of the amp block.

My personal preference is to use multiple channels of the amp block so that I have clean, gritty, dirty and boosted sounds just from the amp settings. Using different channels in the amp also allows me to adjust other amp settings (e.g. Bass/Mids/Treble/Presence) as I go from clean to dirty while maintaining the same volume when switching between them. If I wanted I could even change amp models from one channel to the next, but I generally don't do that. I typically don't need a drive block, but sometimes I will add one to give a slight push (and shaping) to the dirty, or boosted channels (I don't generally use it with the clean channel). Because the amp is compressing in these channels the volume compensation is pretty similar for each of them. Of course if it was too high for one of them then I could just use multiple drive block channels and adjust the output of the drive block for the channel I am using it on (and use Scenes to co-ordinate the switching of the amp and drive channels together).
 
Countryclarke said:
Even if the volume (or any control) is a 0.1, it’s still normal.
I have to turn the Klon to 2 for it to be at unity. But I also had to do that with any Klon(e) I’ve owned.
All in all, don’t worry about what the numbers say. As long as it sounds like you want it.
Click to expand...
yes, but if I want the klon level at 10 with a given set of amp / guitar settings because I like the sound of the combined resulting tone/gain structure (ie Klon boosting amp with guitar at full), but I end up with an unwanted overall volume jump when activating the drive component, then the volume compensating solutions proposed above can be useful or maybe essential (ie compensating sync'd filter block after amp or varying amp output volume settings with drive activation).
 
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Pete Thorn has a video about gain pedals that suggests having a bit of overdrive in the amp as a way to get the best drive tone. I prefer it that way - I don't go for super clean on amps any more. Sounds better to me to have a bit of "glass", and cuts through better as well.

Having some clip in the amp model also tames the volume jump from the drive pedals.
 
sprint said:
yes, but if I want the klon level at 10 with a given set of amp / guitar settings because I like the sound of the combined resulting tone/gain structure (ie Klon boosting amp with guitar at full), but I end up with an unwanted overall volume jump when activating the drive component, then the volume compensating solutions proposed above can be useful or maybe essential (ie compensating sync'd filter block after amp or varying amp output volume settings with drive activation).
Click to expand...
This could also be accomplished by setting your scene volume levels. The OP was concerned about low values like 1.8 for unity not being “normal”. So my post indicates that any numerical value should be seen as “normal”.
 
Countryclarke said:
This could also be accomplished by setting your scene volume levels. The OP was concerned about low values like 1.8 for unity not being “normal”. So my post indicates that any numerical value should be seen as “normal”.
Click to expand...
ya, scene level could work also, but for me anyway, I want the volume compensation working within a scene only when a drive is activated that results in an unwanted volume change.

Agreed - any drive level is "normal" - depends on, to what extent one wants the blocks following the drive to be pushed (or not) by the drive's output level.
 
Turn the gain/volume up on the clean amp. If you've got a bunch of clean headroom on the amp, you'll hear a level boost out front as change in volume. You have to get the amp into its non-linear range so its natural compression keeps the level change to a minimum. Use the headroom meter in the Amp block and set it up so your base clean tone is as close to the top of the headroom meter as possible. Different amps will transition from clean to breakup at different rates once you hit the top of the headroom meter.
 
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