How to do volume consistency?

J

Jim Lawrence

Member
Can I get some advice about keeping volume consistent between presets?
So I create a sound for one song then another and the volume level is kind of different with the same "out1" level.
Each amp model seems to have its own volume scale, etc.
Is there a way to measure the output db accurately? Do I need a special tool? if so, what?
 
Press Shift+page from the front screen. That takes you to the VU meters. They are a good guidelines that will get you in the ballpark.
 
The Out 1 knob on the unit is the same parameter as level on the right hand side of the Amp block in the edit software. It is saved for each preset and can be different for each preset to adjust levels.

Just adjust the knob to where you think it sounds the right level (or use the VU meters as explained above), and press Store Enter Enter to save that setting to that preset.

Remember too that presets will change relative levels at higher volumes than low bedroom volumes so you may need to readjust if you play both soft and loud (no different to a normal amp!!)
 
SteveD61 said:
The Out 1 knob on the unit is the same parameter as level on the right hand side of the Amp block in the edit software. It is saved for each preset and can be different for each preset to adjust levels.
Click to expand...
This is incorrect. Out 1 values do not save with each preset. Also the level knob in the amp block controls the output level from the amp block, whereas out 1 controls the overall output of the unit (after the end of each preset).
 
I've been using my AX8 (and really digging it) for over a year now. I have to remark that this one issue--keeping volume levels appropriate from one preset to the next--is the most difficult thing I've had to overcome. I've got to assume that anyone who uses a variety of presets--perhaps more than 2 or 3--has to deal with this, particularly if the presets are for rather different styles / amp models (e.g., clean Fender, jangly Vox, harder rockin Marshall, highly overdriven modern, etc.) and further complicated if you plan on using various forms of boosts (or other things that effect your level) within your presets.

I find it really clumsy and time consuming. Of course it's a problem you'd experience in the analog world as well if you were dragging 4 rigs around to you live performances. So that fact that it's an issue in the digital world shouldn't be much of a surprise....I just wish the Fractal team would come up with a more elegant, hassle-free (or at least "hassle-minimized") way of resolving it. I wind up doing the best I can with the meters to start with. Then I try the various presets at rehearsals and make notes about what needs to be tweaked. Then I get my stuff home and tweak it and test it out at another rehearsal or gig...and then the cycle starts again. It's a real PITA...
 
It's possible to connect two footswitches to your AX8. One increases the current scene volume with 1 dB and the other decreases by 1 dB. They also save automatically each time. This works great during band rehearsal (not so much when on stage, because there is a little audio drop-out while saving.
 
Then I try the various presets at rehearsals and make notes about what needs to be tweaked. Then I get my stuff home and tweak it and test it out at another rehearsal or gig...and then the cycle starts again. It's a real PITA.

Why not make the Level adjustment at rehearsal at full volume and save it directly (Store Enter Enter)? Then what you hear is what the preset says at. I'm sure the rest of the band can wait 5 seconds or so before the next song. You can also check with them if the level seems right - my singer will ALWAYS let me know if I'm too loud. Part of the purpose of rehearsals is to sort things like stage levels out
 
No, it's not that simple. Most of my presets are set up so that I'm using scene controllers to adjust level settings....so making the changes isn't nearly as convenient as Twist-Store-Enter-Enter. Moreover, I'm in an 8-piece band with a horn section--time is at a premium at our rehearsals. I hate it when people show up with gear that they have issues with and they spend our time messing around with their gear. So no, I don't have the time to f*** with this at our rehearsals.
 
It's all about having a system - It is actually very quick to get to the scene controllers at rehearsal.

If there is enough time to actually decide that some part is too loud or too soft, there is also enough time to adjust the scene controller. You can even do it on the fly, if you just stop playing for a second.

Or you could get something like the Boss FS6 pedal and adjust the scene volume with that in increments of 1 dB. It takes up two expression pedal ports.
 
As @Smittefar mentioned, the VU meters will get you pretty close, and you can adjust the level per preset from there. I also use a db meter on a camera tripod, pointed to the center of my monitor at 3-4 feet to fine tune. Generally, clean tones are a lot louder than you think, and distorted tones sound huge but may not be nearly as loud as they seem. I found this accounted for an apparently loud overdriven tone disappearing in the mix and/or the soundman wincing when when I boosted a clean tone for a solo. The db meter cured a lot of that and got me to where only an occasional minor tweak was needed when final testing with the band at gig volume happened.

I've had the db meter for years, from Radio Shack, used professionally and borrowed for music adventures. Now that I retired, gigging has inherited it full time. They're not expensive, and seem a bit more stable than using the iPhone ones.
 
I basically do the same, but I use a mic on the room where I play and see a giant VU meter on the DAW to adjust all presets and their boost levels.
 
I had a drama to balance the volume of my many presets, but when I started to rely on VU meters everything changed, I realize that vu adjusts 70% right, the other 30 you will have to adjust on live gigs or rehearsal, on high volumes.
 
I'm going through this process now and have also noticed how clean is much louder than distorted on the dB meter, whereas listening with ears-only they seem the same volume.

Question: in a perfect gigging setup (assuming no crazy songs that need extra-loud guitars), would you have all your patches reading the exact same dB level?

And a followup: when you're going through and setting levels, do you test with the kind of music you'd use for each patch? Or do you try to play as loud as you can on each patch? For example, I have a nice acoustic sim that I use mostly for light strumming (although sometimes I'll hit it hard). And I have metal patch that I bash out with. Should I be bashing when setting my acoustic patch level? Or should I set the level for 90% of how I play on that patch?

Thanks for any advice you can give. Getting these levels right has been a LONG process and I'm still not there.
 
In addition to raw level matching, I also pay attention to timbre (EQ) and dynamics (compression). A heavily compressed mid-forward patch may not sound good next to an uncompressed spanky clean if you are looking at levels alone.
 
Rick said:
As @Smittefar mentioned, the VU meters will get you pretty close, and you can adjust the level per preset from there. I also use a db meter on a camera tripod, pointed to the center of my monitor at 3-4 feet to fine tune. Generally, clean tones are a lot louder than you think, and distorted tones sound huge but may not be nearly as loud as they seem. I found this accounted for an apparently loud overdriven tone disappearing in the mix and/or the soundman wincing when when I boosted a clean tone for a solo. The db meter cured a lot of that and got me to where only an occasional minor tweak was needed when final testing with the band at gig volume happened.

I've had the db meter for years, from Radio Shack, used professionally and borrowed for music adventures. Now that I retired, gigging has inherited it full time. They're not expensive, and seem a bit more stable than using the iPhone ones.
Click to expand...


(sorry guys, I screwed up trying to tag Rick in my post above - I'm not used to this forum).

Rick, in case you see this, can you check my post two up from this one where I have questions on your approach to volume leveling using a dB meter? Thanks in advance.
 
fractalz said:
In addition to raw level matching, I also pay attention to timbre (EQ) and dynamics (compression). A heavily compressed mid-forward patch may not sound good next to an uncompressed spanky clean if you are looking at levels alone.
Click to expand...

Are you talking more from the standpoint of not using these two patches in the same song because they'll sound weird, or are you talking from the standpoint of standardizing volume levels across all patches and doing something different for spanky vs. compressed tones? How do you compensate for this?
 
@petesv650

I'm going through this process now and have also noticed how clean is much louder than distorted on the dB meter, whereas listening with ears-only they seem the same volume.

Yes, this is often the cause of the “ice-pick to the eardrums” clean tones you hear some people use. There are a lot of theories about why we hear things this way, but it’s easiest just to accept that we do. It’ll keep you from having those ice-pick cleans, and disappear-in-the-band-mix distorted tones.

Question: in a perfect gigging setup (assuming no crazy songs that need extra-loud guitars), would you have all your patches reading the exact same dB level?

The dB meter gives you a good starting place, a level platform to tweak from, to get where you’re going. Consider it like flattening a room with EQ. You do that to a PA to eliminate some resonances or EQ issues in the room, in order to have a relatively flat EQ to work from as a start. But flat, while great as an EQ thing, doesn’t necessarily sound good. So you tweak from there, but at least you know you’re not far off.

In the end the only true way to finish tweaking volumes is in the environment you’re going to use them, ie, with your band.

And a followup: when you're going through and setting levels, do you test with the kind of music you'd use for each patch? Or do you try to play as loud as you can on each patch? For example, I have a nice acoustic sim that I use mostly for light strumming (although sometimes I'll hit it hard). And I have metal patch that I bash out with. Should I be bashing when setting my acoustic patch level? Or should I set the level for 90% of how I play on that patch?

Use the framework of the song. It’s always the song, and everything must serve the song. Using “as loud as you can” is good for setting compressors, limiters, and chasing feedback issues, but isn’t good for general patch setting as it can tend to rob your dynamics (unless, of course, the song is played as loud as you can play it!). Think of a patch for acoustic type guitar just as playing a real acoustic: it’s not all one volume. You play soft or fingerpick, it’s one volume. You dig into it with pick strumming, it’s another. That’s what you want, a setting that allows that range. Keep the dynamics of your playing in your patches by setting them while playing the way you will on stage.

So for the acoustic patch, make sure your soft playing is heard clearly, but your loud stumming isn’t distorting. Obviously, some of this leans on you having control as a player, too. For your metal patch, let it rage! Then just tweak them to fit into your needs on stage with the band.

Thanks for any advice you can give. Getting these levels right has been a LONG process and I'm still not there.

You’re doing fine. The process of chasing good tone never ends. I’ve been playing over 40 years and it is still something to attend to at every gig. I don’t consider it a chore though. It’s part of seeking that connection, and it’s a part of the craft. Embrace it.
 
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