How good is the Axe into a tube power amp or even a really good SS power amp or even FRFR?

[LiamH]

Matrix gt1000fx into stereo (2) V30 loaded 2x12s

Pretty flipping punchy.

Slightly off topic, but my most recent use of my Matrix GT1000FX 2U has been to drive stereo 15" bass bins in a relatively big PA rig. The Matrix has always sounded pretty awesome driving FRFR guitar speakers, or for that matter a 4x12 cab or 2. Absolutely rock solid in delivering everything below 135 Hz for a full band. It wasn't what I bought it for, but it delivered everything I normally expect from an old QSC power amp that weighs at least twice as much (and needs a good service, hence the Matrix getting substituted for a couple of gigs.)

I know they are out of production for now, but worth keeping an eye out for a used one. They are a very good thing in my experience. GT800FX would probably work for most things too.

OP, I'm not certain if MF10s will particularly easily achieve what you want if you are basing your core tones around what you get from studio monitors. I'm away from home just now, but when I get back will be figuring out how to tweak presets I have set up for MF10s to work with front of house PA, PA monitors, and studio monitors. If it's easy, the reverse should also be easy, so MF10s might be the answer.

Liam

 

[Budda]

Haha.
I love my Axe so much I'm actually considering selling everything else. I'd just like to be sure I'm not going to regret it by locking a door that I still like to open sometimes.

Then open it sometimes? Why does selling amps now mean not buying amps in the future?

 

[axes]

I don't have anything handy, but Fryette has a video of the LXII with the Axe-FX II:

It sounds very promising alright! It's starting to look like Lx II will be the way to go for me.

I have a very short video of me playing through the fryette lx ii when I first got it. I will make more videos soon. It sounds massive in person I love it

Sounds GREAT! This is the kind of tone I'm looking for.

Then open it sometimes? Why does selling amps now mean not buying amps in the future?

I live in a small European country. The availability of similar amps is 1-2 a year if I'm lucky and even if I had the funds I can't buy new because nobody is stocking Mesa/Boogie (and while this might slowly change it's still years) or similar quality amps for that matter. I got very lucky with my JP-2C which I got off Reverb without ever looking at it or playing it. It arrived safely but it was a hard two weeks. So let's just say I can't rebuy my sold stuff within weeks or probably even months if I change my mind.

 

[Budda]

Buy used.

 

[touch33]

That said, if you are picky I'd look at Class A/B SS power amps as they are closer to tube feel out of the gate IME than Class D which feel stiffer but can be dialed in too. I have both kinds, but honestly I wonder how much of what I feel is visual bias? I can't say. They aren't wildly different to be sure.

Absolutely agree on a stout Class A/B amp — better ones use a robust power supply with slew rates that a Class D simply can’t touch. Being the Old SoundMan, I use a Bryston 4B — best sounding/most accurate big heavy SS ever made. Worth every (Canadian) penny.

 

[axes]

Buy used.

Like I said, on the used market if you're lucky you see 1-2 of these amps a year.

 

[Budda]

Like I said, on the used market if you're lucky you see 1-2 of these amps a year.

Im on some forums with some people in the EU and wondering about the search radius. Either way yes sell amps enjoy axefx and money.

 

[axes]

Im on some forums with some people in the EU and wondering about the search radius. Either way yes sell amps enjoy axefx and money.

I'm not saying it's impossible I'm just saying it's not as easy as walking into a store the next day and grabbing one.
I have 3 amps currently. One of them would be nearly impossible to replace (Custom Audio OD100), the JP-2C isn't easy to find in Europe (and also prices will skyrocket when it comes back in stock judging by the increased US prices) and the third one would be the least trouble/is the least important out of them (Marshall Origin 50H). I have multiple guitars that I enjoy using with these amps and the Axe from a '91 Gibson LP to an MM Majesty. I'm looking to be able to cover this tonal ground with the Axe and whatever I'm amplifying it with. And yes, I know I need cabs with different speakers if I want to have the real flexibility deal but that's something I'd be happy to invest in as long as I get good results.

Anyways the Lx II seems to be the optimal solution as it still has the tube growl and punch while it's transparent enough to enable me to use the PA modeling from the Axe which will obviously get me closer to the flexibility I'd like to have than any other solution that would require me to disable it. So no question about flexibility.

Now the only question that remains is if the Lx II will actually give me a better tone than a Mesa 2:90 and Marshall 9200 pair for example but I guess that's something for me to find out.

 

[lastcaress83]

I know it's been discussed several times in the forum but I'm looking for brutal honesty here.
I have a Mesa JP-2C and some other tube heads that I love to death. I've decided to stick with these amps even though I have the Axe III but I finally got to testing with a Suhr Reactive Load and now I know how accurate the Axe's JP-2C model is. Therefore I feel like it would make total financial sense to sell the JP-2C and possibly the other amps as well.
Even though I mainly play through studio monitors now I don't want to lose the opportunity of having the amp in the room sound when I feel like it. So I've been thinking with the money recovered by selling the heads I'd have plenty of budget to get 2 or even 3 tube poweramps, maybe a Marshall 9100/9200 and a Mesa 2:90 (and if I really want to go all out then a Fryette 2/90/2) to be able to cover both "british" and "american" tones. Since these are all stereo poweramps the stereo appeal is also huge and with my budget I could easily go for 2x212 Greenback and 2x212 V30 cabs to have all the options I'd ever want.
However, I live in a very small European country where I don't have the opportunity to try any tube poweramps because even the largest music stores are not stocking any of them and even the used market barely sees 1 or 2 of these every year.
So I don't have any other options than to ask for your brutally honest opinion on the matter: if i were to plug the Axe into a tube poweramp on the JP-2C model, would it sound and feel just as good as if for example plugging the slave of my JP-2C into the same tube poweramp?
Or am I on the wrong track and should go for a very high quality solid state power amp and just let the Axe PA modeling and impedance curves do the rest? Or should I just go for MF10s and trust in the tremendous amount of praise from everyone how "guitar cab-like" it sounds?
I'm sorry for asking these questions like this but I really don't have any opportunity to try these possibilities and will probably have to pull the trigger blindly which I really hate doing. Thanks.

Running an Axe FX III MKII Turbo and a Matrix GT1000 but it’s not quite there. I have a db meter and a Dayton woofer tester to get my cab impedance curves but am having trouble setting everything just right. Because the Y axis on the speaker page of the amp block doesn't really display a relative impedance, getting amplitude spot in is tough even though the resonant peaks are where they should be. Also, I can’t seem to get the right pick noise/attack/response or squish from the Axe. It may work for you but I find it lacking next to my 2203x and 1987x.

 

[Infuseguitar]

I occasionally use to run my AxeFx III with both, Mesa 2:90 into a 4x12 stereo cab and feed the FOH. I set up a handful of presets to split the path after the amp block so that output 3 would feed my amp and not run through the cab block. All post effects going to output 1 (FOH) I would copy and paste but drastically reduce their output levels. Kinda of a W/D/W rig. Yes it absolutely sounded amazing. IMHO there’s something about a Mesa 2:90 that seems to make everything sound better. With both modern and deep drive selected and the right cabinet it just sings. Yes I’ve tried other amps SS and tube, various cabs, 4 cable method with different heads etc...However I’ll be brutally honest here. For me it was just too much stuff to gig with. It defeats the primary reason I bought the AxeFx. If you’re just going through that curiosity phase you might want to ask yourself if it's really worth the investment. If you’re sincerely searching for the "perfect tone” I found that it’s an obsessive mentality that never really ends. Before you know it you’re on eBay at 4am paying absurd prices for vintage NOS Bugle Boy tubes or valves as they say across the pond. I suggest you find someone in your area that may have some of the gear you want to try. If you lived locally I’d say come on over and let’r rip.

 

[<MACHINE>]

Absolutely agree on a stout Class A/B amp — better ones use a robust power supply with slew rates that a Class D simply can’t touch. Being the Old SoundMan, I use a Bryston 4B — best sounding/most accurate big heavy SS ever made. Worth every (Canadian) penny.

I have an out of production Bryston B60, and recently shot it out with my Fryette LXII.

As good as the LXII sounds, to me the Bryston was noticeably better.
There is an extreme clarity with the Bryston and nothing seems hyped. The LXII has a bit of a strident high end....and even with lots of EQ/PEQ I could never fully dial it out in comparison.

Both were quite punchy and loud. Even with 60 watts at 8 ohms (per channel), the B60 easily matched the LXII. I don't play over 90 dB in my 11x12 room...but at that volume things were opened up enough for a good side by side.

I've always been an advocate for tube poweramps following the AxeIII...but the Bryston has definitely disabused me of that mindset.

Of course none of this is to say that the LXII is bad. It most certainly is not...and IMO ... besides the Bryston, it's easily the best I've ever tried (SD700, QSC PLX, Matrix 1000, Randall RT2/50, Splawn Nitro FX Return, JVM FX Return). I could use it happily for the rest of my days.

 

[Furryz]

I know it's been discussed several times in the forum but I'm looking for brutal honesty here.
I have a Mesa JP-2C and some other tube heads that I love to death. I've decided to stick with these amps even though I have the Axe III but I finally got to testing with a Suhr Reactive Load and now I know how accurate the Axe's JP-2C model is. Therefore I feel like it would make total financial sense to sell the JP-2C and possibly the other amps as well.
Even though I mainly play through studio monitors now I don't want to lose the opportunity of having the amp in the room sound when I feel like it. So I've been thinking with the money recovered by selling the heads I'd have plenty of budget to get 2 or even 3 tube poweramps, maybe a Marshall 9100/9200 and a Mesa 2:90 (and if I really want to go all out then a Fryette 2/90/2) to be able to cover both "british" and "american" tones. Since these are all stereo poweramps the stereo appeal is also huge and with my budget I could easily go for 2x212 Greenback and 2x212 V30 cabs to have all the options I'd ever want.
However, I live in a very small European country where I don't have the opportunity to try any tube poweramps because even the largest music stores are not stocking any of them and even the used market barely sees 1 or 2 of these every year.
So I don't have any other options than to ask for your brutally honest opinion on the matter: if i were to plug the Axe into a tube poweramp on the JP-2C model, would it sound and feel just as good as if for example plugging the slave of my JP-2C into the same tube poweramp?
Or am I on the wrong track and should go for a very high quality solid state power amp and just let the Axe PA modeling and impedance curves do the rest? Or should I just go for MF10s and trust in the tremendous amount of praise from everyone how "guitar cab-like" it sounds?
I'm sorry for asking these questions like this but I really don't have any opportunity to try these possibilities and will probably have to pull the trigger blindly which I really hate doing. Thanks.

I have a JP2C and just picked up the Mark VII, that will be the day I unload the real deal in favor of my Axe3
never gonna happen, well I shouldn’t say never because you never know what’s around the bend but we’re not ever close as far as im concerned
To you question, I already owned or have bought over the last 2 years every conceivable power amp solution, powered frfr, genelec monitoring
I also have Boogie and Marshall 2x12s and 4x12s and use my heads to power the fractal but nah..
nothing beats the real deal playing live for the “in the room” sound
your simple not going to get all of the emulated amps to sound like their namesake with any one box
if it existed it would be worthy of 10s of thousands of dollars and I would own one and truly not have any need of my harem of heads

 

[Furryz]

I occasionally use to run my AxeFx III with both, Mesa 2:90 into a 4x12 stereo cab and feed the FOH. I set up a handful of presets to split the path after the amp block so that output 3 would feed my amp and not run through the cab block. All post effects going to output 1 (FOH) I would copy and paste but drastically reduce their output levels. Kinda of a W/D/W rig. Yes it absolutely sounded amazing. IMHO there’s something about a Mesa 2:90 that seems to make everything sound better. With both modern and deep drive selected and the right cabinet it just sings. Yes I’ve tried other amps SS and tube, various cabs, 4 cable method with different heads etc...However I’ll be brutally honest here. For me it was just too much stuff to gig with. It defeats the primary reason I bought the AxeFx. If you’re just going through that curiosity phase you might want to ask yourself if it's really worth the investment. If you’re sincerely searching for the "perfect tone” I found that it’s an obsessive mentality that never really ends. Before you know it you’re on eBay at 4am paying absurd prices for vintage NOS Bugle Boy tubes or valves as they say across the pond. I suggest you find someone in your area that may have some of the gear you want to try. If you lived locally I’d say come on over and let’r rip.

Agreed and I’m that guy up at 4am
my collection is embarrassing but I don’t mind lugging gear to gigs
i just use the Axe for routing and effects
marshall jvm410 for me and my new boogie mark VII
happy to load up in anticipation of the reaction I’ve always received in a a guitar based band
usually from other players that love the tone and technique that that used to be everywhere in my
80s-90s glory days of shred, I’m just glad venues are popping up again post Covid

 

[<MACHINE>]

... but we’re not ever close as far as im concerned...

Yes, I cherry picked this one line, but I have to ask, and I assure you I don't mean this in a snarky or condescending way, but just how golden -are- your ears?

I've taken fairly good care of mine and I can hear pretty minor differences between real amps using the same speaker(s). And re the AxeIII, sure, it can be said they're not -exactly- the same (real amp/speakers vs AxeIII through power amp [tube or solid state] and traditional guitar speakers).

But I've most definitely been able to get nearly indistinguishable tones
w/AxeIII-PA-Guitar Speakers in comparison to my real amps...through the same speakers.

I say nearly indistinguishable, because they're so close, in a blind test, one can't pick one over the other. I've done this multiple times with multiple friends/guitarists. Different people, same results...every time.

Granted, this is with the most recent AxeIII updates (anytime after the second version of Cygnus came out), but it definitely has evolved to the level of sameness that truly requires hearing ability far beyond what most have to distinguish differences.

So it's kind of baffling to read someone say it's not even close. That's almost laughable (honestly ... no offense intended). I can't even say I think mine is only a subjective opinion. I believe it's clearly -become- an observable objective opinion throughout the guitar community. Perfect? No, but comes up microscopically short....at worst.

Of course, not everyone likes everything, but not even close......really???????

 

[lastcaress83]

Yes, I cherry picked this one line, but I have to ask, and I assure you I don't mean this in a snarky or condescending way, but just how golden -are- your ears?

I've taken fairly good care of mine and I can hear pretty minor differences between real amps using the same speaker(s). And re the AxeIII, sure, it can be said they're not -exactly- the same (real amp/speakers vs AxeIII through power amp [tube or solid state] and traditional guitar speakers).

But I've most definitely been able to get nearly indistinguishable tones
w/AxeIII-PA-Guitar Speakers in comparison to my real amps...through the same speakers.

I say nearly indistinguishable, because they're so close, in a blind test, one can't pick one over the other. I've done this multiple times with multiple friends/guitarists. Different people, same results...every time.

Granted, this is with the most recent AxeIII updates (anytime after the second version of Cygnus came out), but it definitely has evolved to the level of sameness that truly requires hearing ability far beyond what most have to distinguish differences.

So it's kind of baffling to read someone say it's not even close. That's almost laughable (honestly ... no offense intended). I can't even say I think mine is only a subjective opinion. I believe it's clearly -become- an observable objective opinion throughout the guitar community. Perfect? No, but comes up microscopically short....at worst.

Of course, not everyone likes everything, but not even close......really???????

I tend to agree with Furryz. I bought the Axe in Jan with the hope of unloading the majority of my gear.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a GREAT product. I’m still blown away when I can pull up a youtube demo of an amp (where the poster is sharing loadbox and IR info) and get VERY damn close to the same sound at the same settings. Also, the effects are some of the best I’ve ever heard and the flexibility is unmatched.

However, there’s an aspect of the response or feel that always seems off in the modeling.
Descriptive words are a challenge but I’d have to call the response that I notice missing “explosion” and “chewiness”. It’s the BOOM impact of the initial pick strike, a full feeling “thud” or “chunk”, and a fullness in the distortion somewhere in the midrange. Keep in mind I’ve run everything through my cab with a near matched IC and matched levels, it’s still noticeable not only while playing but recorded as well.

As an extreme example of this response, check out this video, pay attention especially when he cranks it:

Obviously we don’t have this amp but I notice it in many amps, especially those that don’t have huge low-cut/ high pass filters early in the circuit like Marshall’s and their descendants.

I mean no disrespect here, I love the product and plan to keep it. For the price tag, it’s worth every penny. I’m also frequently amazed at just how close Cliff has gotten. Despite the fact it ain’t all there for me yet, I’m sticking with fractal and can’t wait to see what the future holds.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Or am I on the wrong track and should go for a very high quality solid state power amp and just let the Axe PA modeling and impedance curves do the rest? Or should I just go for MF10s and trust in the tremendous amount of praise from everyone how "guitar cab-like" it sounds?

Letting the Axe do the heavy lifting sound wise works really well into a solid-state amp and FRFR cabinet. It sounds very much like a mic'd guitar cabinet, just like it would in a studio or through FOH on a professional stage.

[…] I'm not certain if MF10s will particularly easily achieve what you want if you are basing your core tones around what you get from studio monitors. I'm away from home just now, but when I get back will be figuring out how to tweak presets I have set up for MF10s to work with front of house PA, PA monitors, and studio monitors. If it's easy, the reverse should also be easy, so MF10s might be the answer.

A lot of us are using powered FRFR cabs, which are solid-state power-amps, powering very flat and full-range cabinets. Good quality studio monitors should also fit into the FRFR realm, so their sound should transfer well.

I have two Electro Voice PXM-12MP, which fit into that category, and like them. EV is owned by DynaCord, and if I remember right, they sell their own version of those cabinets. There are many other cabinets made by other companies in use by members too.

@Marco Fanton helped design the MF-10 and others use them also, including @Cooper Carter, @austinbuddy and @ZenRigs Man, so maybe they can give you their opinions.

 

[<MACHINE>]

I tend to agree with Furryz. I bought the Axe in Jan with the hope of unloading the majority of my gear.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a GREAT product. I’m still blown away when I can pull up a youtube demo of an amp (where the poster is sharing loadbox and IR info) and get VERY damn close to the same sound at the same settings. Also, the effects are some of the best I’ve ever heard and the flexibility is unmatched.

However, there’s an aspect of the response or feel that always seems off in the modeling.
Descriptive words are a challenge but I’d have to call the response that I notice missing “explosion” and “chewiness”. It’s the BOOM impact of the initial pick strike, a full feeling “thud” or “chunk”, and a fullness in the distortion somewhere in the midrange. Keep in mind I’ve run everything through my cab with a near matched IC and matched levels, it’s still noticeable not only while playing but recorded as well.

As an extreme example of this response, check out this video, pay attention especially when he cranks it:

Obviously we don’t have this amp but I notice it in many amps, especially those that don’t have huge low-cut/ high pass filters early in the circuit like Marshall’s and their descendants.

I mean no disrespect here, I love the product and plan to keep it. For the price tag, it’s worth every penny. I’m also frequently amazed at just how close Cliff has gotten. Despite the fact it ain’t all there for me yet, I’m sticking with fractal and can’t wait to see what the future holds.

Kind of seems like you tend to agree with me actually.

My point was that Furryz is saying it's nowhere close. But you said a couple of times in your post how "VERY damn close" and "just how close Cliff has gotten"...?

And, okay, some mysterious explosion or chewiness or thud or chunk or....etc is missing. I can relate to this on some level. I didn't go to into detail in my post above, but yeah there's some extremely minor differences and/or things missing.

But do these things really constitute nowhere near close? I just don't see (hear) that. If you follow this (and other) forum(s), I think you'll see more than the vast majority would tend to disagree with the nowhere close statement as well.

BTW, none of what I've said should be misconstrued to mean anyone's opinion shouldn't be allowed. It's just a subject that warrants a friendly debate...at least from my side of the fence

 

[lastcaress83]

Kind of seems like you tend to agree with me actually.

My point was that Furryz is saying it's nowhere close. But you said a couple of times in your post how "VERY damn close" and "just how close Cliff has gotten"...?

And, okay, some mysterious explosion or chewiness or thud or chunk or....etc is missing. I can relate to this on some level. I didn't go to into detail in my post above, but yeah there's some extremely minor differences and/or things missing.

But do these things really constitute nowhere near close? I just don't see (hear) that. If you follow this (and other) forum(s), I think you'll see more than the vast majority would tend to disagree with the nowhere close statement as well.

BTW, none of what I've said should be misconstrued to mean anyone's opinion shouldn't be allowed. It's just a subject that warrants a friendly debate...at least from my side of the fence

I guess for me it’s not very close in the feel/response department. The sound, however, is pretty close.
As for how important this is depends on the player, some people rely on manipulating those small details for expression. Reminds me of Tom Morello, a lot of the rhythmic tricks, scraps etc he uses do not translate well with the models.

It’s not all just about distortion and sustain.

 

[Furryz]

Yes, I cherry picked this one line, but I have to ask, and I assure you I don't mean this in a snarky or condescending way, but just how golden -are- your ears?

I've taken fairly good care of mine and I can hear pretty minor differences between real amps using the same speaker(s). And re the AxeIII, sure, it can be said they're not -exactly- the same (real amp/speakers vs AxeIII through power amp [tube or solid state] and traditional guitar speakers).

But I've most definitely been able to get nearly indistinguishable tones
w/AxeIII-PA-Guitar Speakers in comparison to my real amps...through the same speakers.

I say nearly indistinguishable, because they're so close, in a blind test, one can't pick one over the other. I've done this multiple times with multiple friends/guitarists. Different people, same results...every time.

Granted, this is with the most recent AxeIII updates (anytime after the second version of Cygnus came out), but it definitely has evolved to the level of sameness that truly requires hearing ability far beyond what most have to distinguish differences.

So it's kind of baffling to read someone say it's not even close. That's almost laughable (honestly ... no offense intended). I can't even say I think mine is only a subjective opinion. I believe it's clearly -become- an observable objective opinion throughout the guitar community. Perfect? No, but comes up microscopically short....at worst.

Of course, not everyone likes everything, but not even close......really???????

Not trying to be snarky? But saying my opinion is laughable?
But saying yours is not a subjective opinion?
What is anyone’s opinion regarding tone if not subjective?
I stand by my “not even close”
based on my 42 years as a tone obsessed musician and guitar/amp collector,
It’s ok I’m used to the amp sim cultists
That need to justify the purchase
Frankly I don’t have to deal with whole buyers remorse thing
I’ve made a good living in the industry and have no qualms debating why,
I wonder why myself sometimes now at 60 years old
But I can buy whatever I want and if I don’t like it it goes into an adjoining area for future evaluation or as part of the collection

But the point is simple
There’s the real thing Marshall, Friedman, Dumble whatever
And then there is the attempt to copy the real thing
AxeFx, line 6, Strymon whatever

And the real thing sounds and feels a certain way that is obviously pleasing enough that companies like fractal said
Hey let’s copy that!

All I can tell you is using my golden (y)ears
Is when I plug into my IIc+ and right next to it is high end latest updated
Axe3-toslink/spdif into one of my Apollo X8s and then into a pair of $3000 a piece Genelec 8341
All crystal clear digital connection with very top shelf converters

They don’t sound the same, not even close
Does the axe sound good? That would be subjective
But does it sound like that amp? No!
And the same for every amp I’ve tried simply comparing what Fractal says it’s supposed to be and what the real amps sound like
Roland chorus, Vox AC
Those cleans and break ups are close
Super high fractal gain sounds good but not like my SLO 100
I don’t care what the GUI says
I like Leon Todd’s channel and he as you know does a lot with the fractal products
But every time he dials in
“That sound” which sound great, it always sounds kinda the same heavy distortion with stereo Fx processing
And until he adds the stereo shimmering FX it doesn’t really sound that great just distorted
Similar to a Marshall but not enough to replace my jvm410
So why would I plug-in live to a ehh emulation of an amp I own
Doesn't seem logical to me
And I have zero reason to pretend it does

Do you really think when you open all those fractal tabs in Axe Edit and chose a different valve or clipping diode
That they managed to capture the actual properties of said elements
And there’s dozens and dozens of these elements
Now that’s laughable
Way too much goes into building an amp from the physical transformer, voltage, manufacturer to the chipset type like on a jcm900, valves,valve type and manufacturer, both power and pre-amp, valve sockets, hand wired or ICB or both
The pots and caps ect..
Do you really think fractal has all that figured out so they can emulate all on those amps?
Impossible

 

[JoKeR III]

when I plug into my IIc+ and right next to it is high end latest updated
Axe3-toslink/spdif into one of my Apollo X8s and then into a pair of $3000 a piece Genelec 8341
All crystal clear digital connection with very top shelf converters

They don’t sound the same, not even close

Are you routing the IIC+ into the Genelecs with a load box into the Apollo? From the "They don't sound the same, not even close" comment, I presume you're using a guitar cab with the IIC+. This is an amp-in-the room vs studio monitors comparison and they will of course sound different.

Do you really think fractal has all that figured out so they can emulate all on those amps?
Impossible

This is exactly what Fractal figured out; modeling amps at the component level. The amp models are created based upon the schematics of the amps and tested against the sound/tone of the physical amps.