How do you focus your tone building with your modeler?

B

BrentRM

Member
I've been curious about this for a while and decided to post about it. Sorry the length!

How do you guys approach building your live sounds? To keep it somewhat consistent and common to the reason many of us have moved to using modelers, lets say we're running direct to FOH and using IEM's for monitoring. No amps and cabs or FRFR.

Obviously some of our favorite recorded tones from our favorite players are not quite what what they are perceived to be in the context of the recording when listening to isolated tracks....going a step further, they also likely didn't sound like they do in the isolated tracks when the sound was coming out of the amp or amps in the studio. Add to that in many/most cases at a minimum the part was at least doubled.... or more.

Some of these sounds actually sound pretty awful and un-inspiring alone.. but absolutely killer in the band mix context.

So, do you guys approach building your sounds to be simply inspiring to play on in your IEM and yet likely more work for the FOH engineer to get to a firm and consistent hold on or do you aim them more at what you know will work in the context of your band? Obviously, if you're a 4 piece rock band you can get away with using some more frequencies for your guitar than if you're in a dual guitar/keyboard/horns etc.band. I see many players using modelers that haven't really level matched or had at least some form of consistency in EQ on a per patch basis and often the sound guy just buries it cause he's tired of chasing the guitar going from overly bright to "blanket over the mic" sounds depending on the patches in the song combined with the huge volume fluctuations in them.

I typically approach it from the standpoint that the FOH engineer should basically be able to leave my channel flat and make slight adjustments based on what he may be doing with the system graph. This applies to EQ and volumes including solo boosts. But that approach requires some additional work in the IEM's to get the guitar to sit exactly where I want it to. Now, the other thing....I build my sounds in my studio through reference monitors(Event TR8) and vary the volume quite a bit back and forth from quiet to fairly loud to make sure things have enough top end/ not too much bottom to sit where they should in the mix ,but not rip faces off or mud it up. Is this the wrong approach? Should I be doing this through something different speaker wise? We do have a consistent sound man and he hasn't complained about anything, but his nature would be to just fix something out front instead of complaining to me....unless it were un-workable. I want to be certain that my stuff is where it's supposed to be in the event he's not available and some house engineer ends up being responsible for us. I want it as dummy proof as possible lol.

Thanks!
B
 
^This

Plus, generally I cut off lows generously when live.
If I'm the only guitar player I cut about 80-120, if I'm with another guitarist it's about 120-150, with keys and brass and strings etc I lop off generously up to even 200! Tone starts to get thin there, but you're not clashing with your bass, kick, keys, double bass, trombone etc etc. Guitar is a mids kinda instrument, so stay in the 'guitar frequencies' not in the other instruments'

Careful with any EQ as well in say the 1-2khz range as this is where most vocalists will need the room, and around 5khz-8khz as well

You can cut off around 8khz to prevent a lot of problems, and there is nothing as significant for the guitar-most cabs don't have much after 6-8khz anyway.

You can use the looper as one of your first blocks to tweak your tone with the band, freeing up your hands and allowing you to make better and faster 'tone decisions'.

A patch that sounds AMAZING by itself sometimes doesn't work in a mix, so if you are interested in the band sounding good and not just you, make the adjustments with the band playing to find the sweet spots

Level your patches at volume, and with the band and you should be fine. Clean tones often stand out in a mix, feel free to bring them down a bit
 
I build presets at moderate volume (comfortable listening) with studio monitors. Gig volume/level in a club or auditorium is much different than gig volume in a studio or home, be careful of the levels you use. Additionally, I've never felt the need to try presets at different levels although they do usually sound great at any level.

My primary focus is making sure they sound great in the auditorium/room. IEMs are typically on a separate mix so they are bound to sound different. To me, what the audience hears is the only thing that matters, way more important than what I hear. Not to say I don't like a good monitor tone but if push comes to shove, I'll battle for the FOH tone over monitors.
 
One thing I have found for live is that I don't like to vary the IR type much. In fact I have pretty much given up on 4-12 IR's. I am favoring 2-12 IR's since they seem more direct, while the 4-12's sound more "distant" (and seem to get buried in the mix easier). I typically only use about 4 different IR's in a night (4 sets). This seems to minimize the radical difference in tones that make your tone either cut through the mix, or get buried. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but this is what has been working for me.

I also agree with staying in the guitar's "slice of the frequency range. Don't step on the bass player, the cymbals, or the upper range of the vocalist where the clarity comes from.

I also play a lot with the Transformer Match parameter as it seems to really make the tone more "in your face" (less distant). Another tip I got from Cliff is to lower the Bass parameter of the BMT controls in the Preamp and instead raise the Dynamic Depth for a tighter bass. He also suggests using the 12dB slope on the high and low cuts (default is 6 dB). I typically low cut around 100 - 150 hz and high cut between 5000 and 8000 depending on the amp, IR, guitar and tone I am looking for.
 
I thought it was just me, but I tend to favor the 2x12 cabs over the 4x12s as well!

This was also true with real cabs when I had them....even when I was selling them off, I sold the 4x12 ones first

I tend to use the 'cut' switch a lot as well....really stops amps before they get flubby
 
I've used FAS gear since they opened. For live gigs, here's my approach:
Build the patch at "live playing" volume
Keep in mind that sometimes, there's a difference between the tone you PREFER, and the tone you NEED, in order to sit in the mix, to serve the band
Your patch is rarely going to sound exactly the same from gig to gig, because the house board, speakers, monitors, room, stage, etc., varies.
Finally, (and this one took me a while to accept), the reality is the tone you "settle for", vs. the one you want, probably doesn't sound much different to the non-guitarist in the audience. That doesn't mean you should give up on achieving the best tone possible. It just means to have some perspective on what you can accomplish, with the aforementioned variables.

I played a gig last weekend with two other bands. Both used amps. They were very curious to hear my "modeler" (AX8). I use a Dirty Shirley patch, and a PRS loaded with Fralin P90's. Both guitarists couldn't stop complimenting me on my tone (not my playing, haha). Ironically, I thought my tone was just okay. Go figure. Good luck. Have fun.
 
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I make my presets in my home studio. In both headphones and monitors. And I do it while playing to music. That way you get a feel for how they sit in the mix.
Then if needed I do some tweaking at gig. Mostly it´s about being careful with the highs and lows. But don´t forget that´s what the foh-guy is there for as well.

But one of the main things for me when playing live is to use only one cab ir. That makes it consistent and more realistic.
 
I just posted a 1-12 IR I just made this afternoon (my first attempt). It is attached to a post in the Cabs and IR section of this forum. If you grab the one in my second post I think it is pretty good. It might need some EQ to match what you are used to, but I find it more focused and cuts through the mix better than the ones I have been using. I am in the process of putting it in a lot of my presets. It sounds especially good for Marshall type amps, but sounds good on others too. It is of a special Celestion I have in a 1-12 cab. It is the best speaker I have ever heard in person (and I have compared it to a lot of other Celestions including some expensive ones). Let me know what you think!
 
jon said:
^This

Plus, generally I cut off lows generously when live.
If I'm the only guitar player I cut about 80-120, if I'm with another guitarist it's about 120-150, with keys and brass and strings etc I lop off generously up to even 200! Tone starts to get thin there, but you're not clashing with your bass, kick, keys, double bass, trombone etc etc. Guitar is a mids kinda instrument, so stay in the 'guitar frequencies' not in the other instruments'

Careful with any EQ as well in say the 1-2khz range as this is where most vocalists will need the room, and around 5khz-8khz as well

You can cut off around 8khz to prevent a lot of problems, and there is nothing as significant for the guitar-most cabs don't have much after 6-8khz anyway.

You can use the looper as one of your first blocks to tweak your tone with the band, freeing up your hands and allowing you to make better and faster 'tone decisions'.

A patch that sounds AMAZING by itself sometimes doesn't work in a mix, so if you are interested in the band sounding good and not just you, make the adjustments with the band playing to find the sweet spots

Level your patches at volume, and with the band and you should be fine. Clean tones often stand out in a mix, feel free to bring them down a bit
Click to expand...
This is a great thread w/ many stellar responses!

I feel that you guys are all hitting on very key points here.

1) Presets at gig volume (Check)
2) Use the same IR for almost all of your presets (Check)
3) 2x12 IR’s seem to work the best for me 90% of the time. (Check)
4) Learn one amp model backwards & forwards. Really get to know it & understand how the deeper amp controls work. This is also true for an IR too.
5) Mids are your friend & less bass as already mentioned for sitting in the band mix & being heard.

If you set your preset/tone to sound thick & huge by itself, it gets lost most times with the full band.

Early on in my AX8 journey, I made a lot of mistakes along the way. I moved from amp model to amp model & cab to cab (IR). I never really mastered it understood how to dial-in the amp model 1st & foremost. It wasn’t until I changed over to the Fractal FX8 & a Tube amp & Guitar Cabinet that I started to get it.

Buying a piece of gear with so many amp models & options over-all can be a very daunting thing. For me it’s been better to limit my options a bit & less really is more for me here.

Dialing-in an amp model w/ a lower gain “X” setting & a higher gain (or Lead) “Y” setting has been a great thing for me too. I’ve been using the 4-band passive EQ on the 2nd page of the amp section to fine-tune my end sound a lot.

I took away some other great tips from all of you guys here & I really appreciate it!!!

Thanks & Peace! X-Mann
 
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