How do we know the amp models are very accurate?

I don't have experience of every single amp, but the ones I do, the Axe III sounds very very very close to them - when you take out the differences between cabs and microphones and component tolerances and all that.

Into a loadbox then through an IR, my VH4 sounds eerily similar to the Axe III's silverface VH4. Likewise with the JVM.
 
Generally speaking, it's the pursuit of accuracy that's been the driving force behind many of the sonic improvements we enjoy from the latest incarnation of the Axe-Fx amp models, in my opinion. Developers continue to emulate tube amps because a lot of people still consider them to be the gold standard. Until that changes, accuracy/authenticity will likely continue to drive development.
 
I used to be quite pedantic about understanding the accuracy of all the models even fussing over matching some amps I had access to when I first got the AXE-FX III.

After listening to it nail one of my prized amps I hit a point where I stopped concerning myself with it. Cliff’s expertise in the accuracy of the models dwarfs all of our combined knowledge and I trust in the continuous improvement I’ve seen over the years.

The amps in the AXE-FX III I’ve actually owned or had access to in studios are essentially identical or are so incredibly close that it doesn’t matter, same with the drives and effects.
 
sprint said:
The whole "just use your ears" thing has never really added up to me. Sure ears are important but if it's just that, then its twiddling knobs and hoping to land on the sound in your head - and given the number of knobs / combinations of knobs, the chances of aimlessly stumbling on that sound is unlikely. I think most people start playing guitar because they were inspired by some player or other which translates into a playing skillset quest and a tone quest which translates into buying / selling / buying gear to match the target tone(s), and, of course measuring progress along the way and predetermining if possible (as the OP requests) how close a given piece of gear can carry one to the target tone. Learning about the "standard" amp tones and how they came to be is also essential in my experience so far (ie if Brian May inspires one's playing, check out resources like "5 Watt World" to understand the history of the Vox AC30...). Learning / understanding more about the mechanics of various amp flavours, and tools like eq, compression + various fx also tremendously improves my ability dial in tones. It's so much more than just listening for what sounds good, though I do think the intention of the this statement often includes these other considerations - but without articulating those related items, the "just use your ears" statement does not seem very meaningful imo.
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I totally agree that acquiring knowledge and understanding of the real amps helps dial in a modeler or profiler. I think you're interpreting "use your ears" as "it's OK not to be knowledgeable, just trust the box!" I don't take it that way at all, and don't agree with that. My interpretation is more along the lines of "if it sounds good, it is good."
 
Im in the "I dont care" or "does it matter" camp....

I actually moved to the AFX (back in the standard days of 2008) because I couldnt find a real amp that sounded how I wanted it to - there was always something that niggled. a little too harsh, an odd midrange freq I couldn't dial out, or in. Compromise on the clean sound if the drive was nice and vica veras...... Thats why I went through so many amps trying to find one that worked for me - and couldnt lug two amps and switchers live really.

all that matters is that you can dial in the sound YOU want - the one in YOUR head, or that fits YOUR project - and that when you do it feels responsive to dynamics when you play it, not if it nails X or Y amp.
 
HerrSquid said:
I totally agree that acquiring knowledge and understanding of the real amps helps dial in a modeler or profiler. I think you're interpreting "use your ears" as "it's OK not to be knowledgeable, just trust the box!" I don't take it that way at all, and don't agree with that. My interpretation is more along the lines of "if it sounds good, it is good."
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sure - "if it sounds good - it's good" - can't argue with that.

My point is that: if one is trying to find a tone he/she has in mind with only "just trust your ears" as guidance, he/she may be searching for a long time. Knowing how to choose/find the right amp/effect and knowing as much as possible about how the chosen amp/effect works is key along with using ears at the same time in the dialing in process. Even the word "trust" in "just trust trust your ears" sets off alarms bells for me because many of us have a limited listening skill set. When I started in guitar I had difficulty hearing changes in bottom end vs mid vs high end vs sizzle vs ... - I had, and still have, limited ability to isolate these in listening nevermind being able to hear more nuanced tonal characteristics. It takes a lot of training/practice to listen the way some can (ie CC). So yes, if it sounds good, it's good regardless of critical listening ability, but before arriving there, if one is trying to find a tone in mind, learned listening ability is part of the tweakers skill set along with the other stuff. Many of us actually can't trust our untrained ears to lead us in the right direction, so knowing the other stuff becomes even more important.
 
Why is it even a question? I don't think my axe3 sounds like any of the tube amps I've owned or own. It's close, it's not a tube amp. If you want a tube amp buy and play that. So much gear to be had and soooo many amps. The axe3 is the most enjoyable experience I've had playing guitar, the amp chase I went on was cool. Having the versatile options the axe 3 provides is not available on any amp , it's so much more than an amp/modeler. I'll never understand why it's such a topic. Amps are different and always will be for various reasons, voltage, trannys, weight, ohms...etc etc, an axe3 is a pre amp with many options to use as an output source. It's in a class amps are not in, it's a combination of a shit ton of great sounds, and that is what you'll NEVER find in any single amplifier.
 
316ms said:
Why is it even a question? I don't think my axe3 sounds like any of the tube amps I've owned or own. It's close, it's not a tube amp. If you want a tube amp buy and play that. So much gear to be had and soooo many amps. The axe3 is the most enjoyable experience I've had playing guitar, the amp chase I went on was cool. Having the versatile options the axe 3 provides is not available on any amp , it's so much more than an amp/modeler. I'll never understand why it's such a topic. Amps are different and always will be for various reasons, voltage, trannys, weight, ohms...etc etc, an axe3 is a pre amp with many options to use as an output source. It's in a class amps are not in, it's a combination of a shit ton of great sounds, and that is what you'll NEVER find in any single amplifier.
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Well, Cygnus is supposed to be more accurate than previous firmware. And we got that even considering variations between amps. Cygnus JCM 800 feels considerably better to me than before. Seems to be due to characteristics that are now more accurate. Emulating tube amps is a massive part of why I got into fractal units personally.
 
Xrocker said:
They aren’t accurate at all!

For one thing the weight is way off.

They don’t smell right either.
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True on all counts.

Keep in mind that vintage tube guitar amps were a production line item built to a price point, with all of the minor variances in parts, pots, capacitors, resistors, inductors, transformers, and even lead dress (how the wires inside are routed) making them all lucky to sound similar, much less identical, and there were a number of 'lemons', which likely became mod bait or landfill over the years. Most vintage Fenders used 10% tolerance resistors except where it was really important to achieving good sound quality (bias supplies, PI plate resistors). Vacuum tubes are a hand-built item also, and are not often as good as they were 50 years ago due to having been relegated to a 'boo-teek' product status in most parts of the world in the 70s and 80s (notable exception - Russia, whose military jets and other apparatus used them)

As better, more consistent building techniques came into play and were adopted and the price of 'precision' 5% tolerance resistors dropped to where they became fairly standard (and 1% took over the moniker 'precision') the consistency improved, but most pots are still 20% tolerance unless the particular manufacturer has a boner for low tolerances and ponies up the $$$ for 'precision' pots.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the models were built from particular examples that sounded good, so they may not sound like the example in the backline at your gig that has been rode hard and put away wet by every guitarist that gigged there, or like your hothouse flower in your guitar room

So, the pots may need to be twiddled slightly differently, but the sound of a good example of each model is surely in the box waiting to be unleashed....
 
Let me take a different position. I care about sound...I care a lot. I have a Friedman Runt 50, a Triple Recto from the mid 90s, a Marshall JCM 800 2204, a mid 70s Fender Twin that has been modded (black face), a Bogner Shiva, a Roland Jazz chorus, and a Engl Powerball. I didn't believe in amp modeling and yet I tried the Kemper, Neural DSP, Helix, and was not happy. I bought a FM3 on a whim and it was so good that I have been selling my pedals, some of my amps, and bought a Fractal Axe FX-III (for the additional power).

I think the amps are very close, close enough that I can't tell in a mix, and can barely tell live (air movement is slightly different but you can tweak that to get similar air movement).

When I first got the FM3 I had similar problems as some others (not getting feedback) lack of air movement in FRFR's etc. It took a month of learning how to tweak the Fractal to fit my tastes but now I am more competent and I have to say the Fractal is amazing but requires quite a bit of dedication to learning the unit. I mean the presets sound amazing, but I think with a little tweaking they can sound much better depending on what you are looking for.

As someone who owns a studio, used or recorded dozens of nice tube amps I can say the Fractal sounds amazing. I planned on only using the Fractal for live and never for recording but I have found myself very satisfied with the Axe FX III and have recorded two records for other bands and one record for my band and I have exclusively used the Fractal and over two dozen amp sims within the Fractal. The bands were excited in the wide range of sounds that we got and each sounded unique (for different songs) and they were thrilled with the final guitar mixes.

I was able to get sounds I like from the Helix, but to me the high gain amps all sounded very similar. The clean amps had a bit of variety but several of the effects sounded too similar. Unlike the Helix, the high gain amps in the Fractal sound very different, the cabs are amazing, and the effects are as good as my eventide gear I used for recording before buying the Fractal.

I can't stress enough how blown away I have been because I went in thinking Fractal was just another modeler and I was sure I wouldn't like it. My biggest complaint is actually Fractal's biggest strength....it is complicated, forever tweak able, and you can get lost in the tweaking and have to start from scratch. However, I believe going deep under the hood is how you can get the amazing sounds that I couldn't get from a Helix.
 
Hi @rrhoads17
Without the benefit of experience, I doubt anyone could. For the amps that I have experience in, it was immediately apparent that the models were accurate because it was weirdly in my memory… for example, the first time I played a fractal bassman, I immediately recognized it as my old bassman from 30 years ago. It was genuinely a strange feeling!

If you dont have that experience, just grab the one you like, and go for it I reckon!
Thanks
Pauly

rrhoads17 said:
For people who don't really play tube amps and don't have access to play a Friedman, vintage Fenders and Marshalls, etc., how do we know that the amp models are extremely close to the amps that they're modeling? The amp models sound very good obviously, but do they sound almost dead on to the real deal?
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Dimi84 said:
Well, Cygnus is supposed to be more accurate than previous firmware. And we got that even considering variations between amps. Cygnus JCM 800 feels considerably better to me than before. Seems to be due to characteristics that are now more accurate. Emulating tube amps is a massive part of why I got into fractal units personally.
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That's cool, it sounds really good. SS has really been impressive for sometime now as far as being closer to the punch and sounds of a tube amp, I just dig the axe3 and never really think of a tube amp when I'm playing it. The emulation is outstanding I agree, it's just so much better to me for so many reasons.
 
I’m also a ”don’t know, don‘t care”. Do my Fractals through studio monitors or in ears sound the same as my JCM800, PT-15, Tweed deluxe, Deluxe Reverb or Matchless amps cranked up in a room or on stage? No, I don’t think so. Do my Axe3, FM9 and FM3 sound amazing and do things that my tube amps can’t do and many times are the right tool for the gig?? Ab-so-f*cking-lutely!!
 
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