How accurate is Fractal's amp modeling?

[My name is mud]

The presence buttons are not pulled , that’s a serious and accurate test. Not here to shit talk while doing comparaison of the gear I own .
the shred mode is not reproduce even with the +3 high treble trick mentioned on the wiki , the original is more tight , got more gain . But cliff already know all of this and he said he will check his sim the day he has a JP2c back in his hands . Nothing special . just my experience as this topic talk about the « how accurate is the axe « . I just share my experience with the jp , as I don’t have the others amps at home . But knowing this , I don’t think like I used to, that’s the control are authentic . And yes we don’t care because we can tweak everything to have it . Ok ok . I m not here to fight in endless discussion that change nothing in the end . The best test is doing yours, having the real and the sim . The rest don’t count . So don’t hesitate to post comparative video of your amp vs the sim at equal settings . Only this matters .

 

[York Audio]

The presence buttons are not pulled , that’s a serious and accurate test. Not here to shit talk while doing comparaison of the gear I own .
the shred mode is not reproduce even with the +3 high treble trick mentioned on the wiki , the original is more tight , got more gain . But cliff already know all of this and he said he will check his sim the day he has a JP2c back in his hands . Nothing special . just my experience as this topic talk about the « how accurate is the axe « . I just share my experience with the jp , as I don’t have the others amps at home . But knowing this , I don’t think like I used to, that’s the control are authentic . And yes we don’t care because we can tweak everything to have it . Ok ok . I m not here to fight in endless discussion that change nothing in the end . The best test is doing yours, having the real and the sim . The rest don’t count . So don’t hesitate to post comparative video of your amp vs the sim at equal settings . Only this matters .

Here's a comparison test I did with the PVH Block model and my 5150 head. I used the Fractal LB-2 for the real head and used the LB-2 UK Impedance curve for the PVH block so both amp and model were using the same curve (makes a huge difference).



The settings on the real amp and the model are very close, except for Presence and Depth, which the differences in those controls have been discussed in other threads.

If you're looking to match your Axe to the real amp, try setting up a Tone Match patch (I'll try to post mine later if I can get in front of my unit) with the real amp and the JPC model. I use a Looper, play some riffs, and use the Tone Match block's window to see the differences between the amp and the model and tweak the model until the line is flat. If the line shows it boosting low end for the match, add some low end to the model until it flattens out. If the line is cutting top end for the match, try lowering your Presence control until it's flat. You'll find that the Master Volume and Presence controls have a HUGE impact on the tone, so those need the most attention when it comes to matching tones.

If you end up trying this with your amp. Try bypassing the graphic EQ on both amp and model and match that tone first to get a baseline. THEN, engage the graphic EQ on the amp and model and dial in the model to match. You have a very complex amp, so it might take a little time to get it perfect, but the Axe is amazing at replicating the real thing.

 

[alfaphlex]

Exact same settings and graphic eq off to not have this fader argument back , and shred mode off , well , just the basic settings of the channel 2 . Same poweramp (axe through the head ) and same load box , same ir ....



the axe is not bad hm . Just sound more agressive , more high ...

Could the difference have been due more to the visually matching the knob settings?

What I mean is that the amp block knobs don't always visually match their irl counterparts (i.e.- Axe is always 0-10, Fender knobs go 1-10, some amps go to 11). Perhaps a slight difference in taper might've cause the Axe model to sound brighter.

 

[My name is mud]

Could the difference have been due more to the visually matching the knob settings?

What I mean is that the amp block knobs don't always visually match their irl counterparts (i.e.- Axe is always 0-10, Fender knobs go 1-10, some amps go to 11). Perhaps a slight difference in taper might've cause the Axe model to sound brighter.

What about a realistic and different amp pannel for each amp ? I mean... considering the button course for each amp ? Then we have another step in simulation ! . Would love to have the buttons that act exactly as the real deal and that for every amp.

 

[DallasGlenn2005]

Ironic, I sold my 94 AC30TB (original red tolex) to pay for my fx3. No regrets. Although I’m not nearly as good as you in dialing in the tones.

 

[Syrinx]

What about a realistic and different amp pannel for each amp ? I mean... considering the button course for each amp ? Then we have another step in simulation ! . Would love to have the buttons that act exactly as the real deal and that for every amp.

Cliff already explained why this isn't happening for certain knobs

 

[Bill Arsenault]

I think we are at the point that the question needs to be turned around. It's not how accurate the AxeFX is? It's can a tube amp sound as good as the AxeFX? You have considerable more control in the AxeFX to make it sounds any way you want. You don't with a tube amp.

That’s a strange thing to say.
You can turn that question around whenever you feel your ready.
There’s a good 50 years worth of recordings of tube amps being played live and in the studio that you can use as reference to do your comparison if you don’t happen to have any vintage Hi-Watt/Fane or Marshall/Celestion rigs available to do an actual head to head.
Seems pretty conclusive that our hero’s did just fine with a half-dozen knobs for control.
If you had a thousand knobs to work with you still more than likely could not sound as fearsome as Tony Iommi with just an SG and a Dallas Arbiter plugged straight into a vintage Laney stack.
If tube amps didn’t sound like the voice of god then most of us wouldn’t even be playing guitar.
When you make Led Zeppelin I, Dark Side or Frampton comes alive with a modeler - then you can start talking crazy with authority.
I also don’t think Cliff would agree with you that his flagship product is not about accuracy after he and his peeps painstakingly replicated a couple hundred brand-name tube amps for everyone and better than any other human on the planet has ever done before no less.
You and I may not care too much about accurately modeled amps- But Fractal won’t stay at the front of the pack without them.
Im here mostly for stereo effects and W/D/W done easily for a grand instead of the hard way for 10 grand.
But I do love the fact that a lot of the modern amp models have most of what makes them sound great and less of what makes them sound harsh and fizzy- or at least the flexibility to try to dial that stuff out.
I think you are very seriously underestimating Vintage hand wired heads with well done master volume mods and matched sets of broken-in speakers enclosed in 60 year old cabinets.
Like Cliff, I still have my 59SLP stack with matched vintage greenbacks for a reason.
If your gonna take a shot at the King you better have what it takes.

 

[Handyman]

How much more black can it be? None. None more black.

 

[Bill Arsenault]

I was hopelessly lost last night in Mr. Floyd scenes 1/2 for almost 2 hours and then winded it down with the JS410 -
so I won’t be running my big mouth anytime soon.
I haven’t noticed the JS sim getting much love around here- but it is realistic and accurate beyond belief- at least to me.
You know a model is accurate when it makes you sick to your stomach for selling that amp.
I use it a lot as my main sound on the FM3 not only because I really do like the way it sounds and feels but the sound is also quite unique to any other flagship Marshall’s- being a nightmare of 4 PCB boards with valves mounted directly onto the mother board.
I‘m not geek enough in that way to know if it‘s faithful to all settings and channels- but the best of the Drive channel is absolutely there in all its glory.
The thing with the actual JS was that the 4 channels could be a bit redundant because they all over-lapped each other significantly-
and the two OD channels being identical.
The Clean channel could get into some Drive channel territory and the Drive channel could do some cleans but also could go theother way and begin to over-lap into the OD channels, Ect- and of course I have no clue how those scenarios are handled when modeling.
But I do know that like many of you I could listen to him talk about that stuff for hours on end.
I have been trying to really listen to the way the sound trails off like he pointed out and my mind has been totally blown since that revelation.
But anyway- the JS410 in the FM3 is so good man- so fucking good.
I had no choice but to let mine go because it ended up having to be turned up too loud to sound right- at least more than my seriously damaged ears can safely handle.
So I know in my broken heart she had to go- but I was still oddly bummed for a while when I realized how amazing the patch sounded.
It‘s like hearing the voice of your ex-girl on an old recording or something like that.
I personally think that type of physical reaction is a testament to the authenticity of the modeling.
Here she is when she was mine and then a photo sent to me from her of her new guy railing the snot out of her-
and who is a gigging man of course- that bitch.
(the both of them).

 

[StingRay]

TFW you realize AC30s of every era were built like crap, worse than Marshalls.
The Edge has dozens of top boost AC30s, like Brian May and Tom Petty. You can find ones that sound like a Plexi, ones that never distort, ones that blow tubes, ones that blow speakers, all of which will likely have different phase inverter tail resistors and mismatched parts all over, not to mention different brand or different material capacitors.
Then there's all the non-top boost AC30s, the homebrew modded ones, the repaired ones with the wrong transformers....
This is the sort of "problem" profiling solves, to the extent of the developer's ability and why you may not care for one brand profiler over another.
Or, you could go for a well built Vox by problem solvers like Morgan or Matchless and many others already in the AxeFX.

Respectfully I often read from different people how JMI AC30's very in the way they sound, often dramatically as if it was almost random, and of course some of what that has to do with is how they have been repaired and modified through the many years by their owners, but this is much more predictable than most people think. Most of the sound difference is from two factors. First, the three different output trannys that were used in JMI AC30s (Hadden, Woden, and Albion) all had different character and coloring, and secondly the voicing value out of the factory which there were three different versions (Treble, normal and bass models). What configuration you got out of this determined greatly on how the amp sounded. You could even throw in a third factor as they made "treble model" non-top boost versions too that sounded brighter than a regular "normal" non-top boost AC30.

Personally I wish Cliff would have used an actual nice sounding JMI AC30TB than a Modern hand wired one because the modern hand wired ones significantly lack in quality which will reflect in it's tone, clarity and dynamics. Check out this video for starters.

I think going for a "well built Vox by problem solvers" is a great idea, but there is a good video on youtube comparing a early "90s Korg/Vox AC30TB to a Morgan clone which it's clear the Morgan owner expected to sound better, but the Vox blows it away in tone to my ears and the comments reflect it. As for a Matchless like the DC30. There isn't a better built amp but in my opinion they have their own sound and don't really sound a lot like an AC30 in my humble opinion. I never played a Bad Cat Cub, but from what I've read they sound a lot like Matchless since the same guy designed them that designed the original Matchless amps. To my ears the closest "well built Vox by a problem solver" amp is a Tophat Club Royal, or King Royal 2x12. They sound like what a modern Vox AC30 Hand wired should sound like and as good or better than any JMI AC30 I've heard assuming you have two blue speakers in the cab. Brian Gerhard at Tophat tends to install and push for one blue and one G12H speaker for more tone variation potential, but if you're more of a Vox AC30 purist definately go with two blues or a blue and a cream alnico.

While a certainly consider both Edge and Brian May Vox AC30 connoisseurs and absolutely vital to their sound 95 to 100% of the time, I don't consider Tom Petty one. He never used Vox amps on his first album and didnt' get into them til later, and maybe I'm wrong but I don't think it would hurt him much if he had to play with other amps instead as he commonly uses Fender, Ampeg, Hiwatts amoung others on his music.

 

[johnnypig]

It would be cool to have a Vox from every era with all the different configurations but we do have a number of takes on that style already.
AC30s are fun amps. I've played dozens over the years from mint condition to almost catching fire and they all have their charms, which is what I think I was trying to convey.
I don't think there's a particular Vox-ish tone you can nail to a specific year or something, but they're all interesting. Speakers falling apart, paper in oil caps drying and carbon comp resistors cracking probably contributes to a lot of mojo too.

 

[sskkmm]

Personally I wish Cliff would have used an actual nice sounding JMI AC30TB than a Modern hand wired one because the modern hand wired ones significantly lack in quality which will reflect in it's tone, clarity and dynamics. Check out this video for starters.

Just in to say wow didn't think I would see one of Lyle's videos here.

He is great guy when it comes to Voxes. On a side note I own one of his custom tube amps (Aztlan) that is a great take on some Fender models.

On another note, I once had a great 60s vintage AC30 in my house for about a month. A 1964 AC-30 T with silverbells. My Matchless SC30 could do it all and more and was more dependable and reliable. :/ But the Vox won in the mojo dept.

 

[StingRay]

It would be cool to have a Vox from every era with all the different configurations but we do have a number of takes on that style already.
AC30s are fun amps. I've played dozens over the years from mint condition to almost catching fire and they all have their charms, which is what I think I was trying to convey.
I don't think there's a particular Vox-ish tone you can nail to a specific year or something, but they're all interesting. Speakers falling apart, paper in oil caps drying and carbon comp resistors cracking probably contributes to a lot of mojo too.

Well said...yes they are fun and I can't think of a better amp to collect for that reason, assuming you have the money. I don't, hehe. And yes, I would love to have a side by side demonstration of all the configurations, that would be incredible!

I've only played about 4 different JMIs before, and I've owned a '94 AC30, '98 AC30 and AC15, and a JMI '63 copper panel. I've tried all three output trannys. Albion is the brightest and my favorite. I believe these are the trannys the modern Vox amps are cloned after since Korg took over. Woden was a close second and sounds very nice and from what I understand the most popular when people need a clone from Mercury Magnetics. They are a little fatter sounding, but not quite as bright and chimy sounding to my ears. Hadden is the one I like the least by far. It was far to dark sounding for my taste, but I can see how some people would like it.

 

[StingRay]

Just in to say wow didn't think I would see one of Lyle's videos here.

He is great guy when it comes to Voxes. On a side note I own one of his custom tube amps (Aztlan) that is a great take on some Fender models.

On another note, I once had a great 60s vintage AC30 in my house for about a month. A 1964 AC-30 T with silverbells. My Matchless SC30 could do it all and more and was more dependable and reliable. :/ But the Vox won in the mojo dept.

Ya, I just found Lyle not too long ago. I'm really impressed by his work and innovation in his videos. He seems like a very nice guy too. I didn't know he made custom amps in the past...pedals yes, but amps no. That's interesting. I just wrote him recently to see if you'll work on a Top Hat Club Royal for me. Still waiting to hear back from him.

Don Butler who is well known for his Vox upgrade work was always the one who did work for me before. He's a great guy and knows AC30s as well or better than anyone, but I think Lyle is more cut out for what I want in this case.

 

[StingRay]

Just in to say wow didn't think I would see one of Lyle's videos here.

He is great guy when it comes to Voxes. On a side note I own one of his custom tube amps (Aztlan) that is a great take on some Fender models.

On another note, I once had a great 60s vintage AC30 in my house for about a month. A 1964 AC-30 T with silverbells. My Matchless SC30 could do it all and more and was more dependable and reliable. :/ But the Vox won in the mojo dept.

Oh, by the way, nice photo. Always love to see vintage AC30s. It doesn't seem to have the wooden baffle in the middle of the speaker holes that I'm used to seeing in JMI AC30's, interesting.

 

[York Audio]

Oh, by the way, nice photo. Always love to see vintage AC30s. It doesn't seem to have the wooden baffle in the middle of the speaker holes that I'm used to seeing in JMI AC30's, interesting.

I hate those diffusion bars over the speakers with a passion. They sound great in the room, but they make mic’ing the amp a nightmare. I literally took bolt cutters and ripped one out of an AC15 and it made it sound waaaaaaay better.

I have two ‘94 Korg era AC30’s. I’ll ship one to Cliff the minute he wants it. Those are fantastic amps!

 

[johnnypig]

When the DC30 got added to the beta I was watching out for ideas to set them up and came across that pedal show's 1961 AC30:



and in comparison with a new AC15, DC30 and Victory:



Too bad they didn't get to the Morgan and Dr.Z, but we have them! Also /13 and Wreck liverpool and ruby rocket, off the top of my head.

 

[StingRay]

Hehehe, that's funny! So am I correct in saying you like miking the cap, or are you miking off-center and it's still in the way.

I hope Cliff will take it on, I hear those early '90s Korg AC30s sounded better than the new hand wired ones, what does that tell you? I sold mine almost 25 years ago. It was beautiful, but too loud for playing in the house, hehe. Since I had it so long ago, I can't really compare it, but the way I remember it sounding, it sounded better than a current model. I also see used hand wired AC30s for sale regularly, I rarely see a early '90 for sale. What does that tell you?

As I said, I hope Cliff will take it on, but unfortunately I don't think he will because I don't think he thinks it's significant enough of a difference to warrant it. A hand picked JMI, maybe, but an early Korg I don't think so. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[johnnypig]

Man, what a dream it would have been to have Wazas and Torpedos in the 90s. I wouldn't have ignored the Trainwrecks and Plexis that literally stacked up and never sold at the used gear shop. The wrecks were so pretty and like $600 - $800 but they did nothing unless they were melting the walls.

 

[StingRay]

Yes, I remember I had this thick magazine in the very early '90s that had all these amp manufactures corporation size to garage size that I never heard of at the time with descriptions, photos of some of their models as well as prices. Damn I wish I still had that magazine! But I remember one of the trainwreck model combos had a cabinet design just like a Vox AC30 and it was only like $600. There was another tiny amplifier company that also made a Vox AC30 knock off clone in the magazine that had a name with "brook" in it. I can't remember the name. If I heard it I'd know it. If only I knew what they were!