Highest gain non-modded Plexi?

sumitagarwal

Inspired
Just out of pure curiosity, which non-modded Plexi model do you folks find to have the most gain? I know it's a little tricky to sort because when reading deeper into the descriptions some models seem to have small mods like changed bright cap values, etc.
 
1959 slp has a lot of gain and if you want more gain just put the input boost on neutral and the number of dbs you want
To me the 1959SLP models are the least gainy of the Plexi models in Fractal. To me at the same settings the Plexi 100 and 1970 sound more driven and aggressive.

Tried some of the Plexis with fw 23.04.
  • Used Plexi 100W Jumped as the reference so the following is compared to that and with each other.
  • The 1987X Jumped is the one that seems to have the least gain, but also most bass out of the models.
  • The Plexi 1970 100W is the quietest and needs a few dB Level increase at the same settings.
  • The 1959SLP Jumped has the most gain and treble when cranked all the way but needs a bit of Level reduction compared to the others. It's closest to the 1970 soundwise to my ears.
  • The 1970 and 1959SLP seem to be the most "aggressive" sounding Plexis. Plexi 100W is kind of like the perfect sweet spot to me and the model I use the most when I want a Superlead.
  • Plexi 50W Jumped and Plexi 50W 6AC7 Jumped also seem to have similar gain to the 1970 and 1959SLP.
This just based on listening to these at the same settings. Differences between these amps could account for various tonality and gain differences so with some dialing you could probably be able to make the Plexi 100W more aggressive etc.
 
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Unless they have a 50w thats newer
Looks like the 50w 1 is from 1972.

So that's the general rule: the later the Plexi the higher the gain? Gradually Marshall tweaked values and components to keep up with the demand for more gain?

Also, am I crazy or do Plexis often sound tighter and more percussive than 2203's/2204's?
 
You are in interesting territory. In the Marshall collectors' world, Plexis stopped being made in 1969, when they moved over to metal control panels instead of "plexi-glass". A 1972 50 watt Marshall won't have been a "Plexi", and there were a lot of different 50 watt Marshall amp models made in 1972. Model 1987 was the 50 watt lead guitar head that carried over, but model 1986 (50W bass head) was all but identical, and continued with the same circuit design at least until 1977, maybe even 1978.

The specific amp model designs changed in pretty subtle ways, with many of the myths around higher gain amps probably having as much to do with pot tapers as any internal specification changes. There is also some confusion around US versions vs. rest of world. The designs of individual models never seem to have changed all that much, but they were moving from turret board amps to PCBs in the 70s, and the suppliers of capacitors were competing for price with new materials. Similarly carbon film resistors replaced carbon composite resistors during the amps' development period. Some believe these changes contributed to changes in the perceived "tone" of the amps.

It would be hard to say that Marshall tweaked for more gain over the years, but it does seem they wanted the amps to sound very loud when the volume control was set fairly low. I'm sure not many in 1972 tried full volume on a 100 watt Marshall into a 4x12, becuase they are pretty much deafening before the volume control gets to 2. Attenuators and power soaks were pretty much unheard of back then, and before 1975/6, there weren't any "Master Volume" amps produced by Marshall themselves.

You're not crazy. Not sure about tighter, but in Fractal world the Plexis do indeed sound more percussive once driven fairly hard. The lack of master volume (or set to 10 in ideal controls) means that once the input volume is set to get in the slightest crunchy, the power amp supply is starting to sag a bit, and the natural compression of this gives a load more percussive pick attack than the 2203/2204 models.

What you have to remember is that the 2204 (and to an extent the 2203, but, my god, they are both still loud!) the tones are achievable at "loud" rehearsal room or pub gig level. Driving a 100 watt 1959 Plexi with humbucking guitar pickups with the volume at 3 or 4 into a 4x12 (or 2 of them) is ridiculously loud even in a 200 seat venue. So yes, capable of of some things we never expected of the master volume Marshalls, but it was rare to be in a big enough room to exploit the way they sounded best for mere mortals.

(Back in 1989 or 90 I was told my stage volume level was "ridiculously loud" when sound-checking at Brixton Academy. I was using a plexi-reissue JTM45 1962 "Bluesbreaker", admittedly cranked up. At the time the venue held about 3000 people, and was reputed to be the largest indoor stage in Europe. The real problem was most likely that there was a lot of guitar in the backfold/sidefold, and it was coming out through front of house. Point remains, Marshalls sound good when played quite a bit louder than people are expecting. It's hard to appreciate that when listening to a model through headphones or studio monitors, as large movements of air are part of the overall experience.)

Liam
 
You are in interesting territory. In the Marshall collectors' world, Plexis stopped being made in 1969, when they moved over to metal control panels instead of "plexi-glass". A 1972 50 watt Marshall won't have been a "Plexi", and there were a lot of different 50 watt Marshall amp models made in 1972. Model 1987 was the 50 watt lead guitar head that carried over, but model 1986 (50W bass head) was all but identical, and continued with the same circuit design at least until 1977, maybe even 1978.

The specific amp model designs changed in pretty subtle ways, with many of the myths around higher gain amps probably having as much to do with pot tapers as any internal specification changes. There is also some confusion around US versions vs. rest of world. The designs of individual models never seem to have changed all that much, but they were moving from turret board amps to PCBs in the 70s, and the suppliers of capacitors were competing for price with new materials. Similarly carbon film resistors replaced carbon composite resistors during the amps' development period. Some believe these changes contributed to changes in the perceived "tone" of the amps.

It would be hard to say that Marshall tweaked for more gain over the years, but it does seem they wanted the amps to sound very loud when the volume control was set fairly low. I'm sure not many in 1972 tried full volume on a 100 watt Marshall into a 4x12, becuase they are pretty much deafening before the volume control gets to 2. Attenuators and power soaks were pretty much unheard of back then, and before 1975/6, there weren't any "Master Volume" amps produced by Marshall themselves.

You're not crazy. Not sure about tighter, but in Fractal world the Plexis do indeed sound more percussive once driven fairly hard. The lack of master volume (or set to 10 in ideal controls) means that once the input volume is set to get in the slightest crunchy, the power amp supply is starting to sag a bit, and the natural compression of this gives a load more percussive pick attack than the 2203/2204 models.

What you have to remember is that the 2204 (and to an extent the 2203, but, my god, they are both still loud!) the tones are achievable at "loud" rehearsal room or pub gig level. Driving a 100 watt 1959 Plexi with humbucking guitar pickups with the volume at 3 or 4 into a 4x12 (or 2 of them) is ridiculously loud even in a 200 seat venue. So yes, capable of of some things we never expected of the master volume Marshalls, but it was rare to be in a big enough room to exploit the way they sounded best for mere mortals.

(Back in 1989 or 90 I was told my stage volume level was "ridiculously loud" when sound-checking at Brixton Academy. I was using a plexi-reissue JTM45 1962 "Bluesbreaker", admittedly cranked up. At the time the venue held about 3000 people, and was reputed to be the largest indoor stage in Europe. The real problem was most likely that there was a lot of guitar in the backfold/sidefold, and it was coming out through front of house. Point remains, Marshalls sound good when played quite a bit louder than people are expecting. It's hard to appreciate that when listening to a model through headphones or studio monitors, as large movements of air are part of the overall experience.)

Liam

Brixton, nice, what band?
 
Brixton, nice, what band?
Beat the Jeep, which no-one had heard of back then, even less so now. Supporting a thrash metal band that I didn’t remember the name of the next day, but their audience didn’t hate us, which I do remember. Even sold a few 7” 45s of a single (that I hadn’t played on; I was the new guitarist, and had practised furiously for the 3 weeks since I had joined) and signed some autographs after the show. It was followed by 10 years of “nearly famous” gigging. (Supported Jools Holland and band at a festival. Didn’t catch Jools’s interest, but was told by a complete stranger in the supermarket that we were much more memorable about a week later).

Abiding memory was getting a special lead made to reach from my effects pedals (Boss ME-5) back to the amp. It was a fair bit further than a long guitar lead!

Liam
 
You are in interesting territory. In the Marshall collectors' world, Plexis stopped being made in 1969, when they moved over to metal control panels instead of "plexi-glass". A 1972 50 watt Marshall won't have been a "Plexi", and there were a lot of different 50 watt Marshall amp models made in 1972. Model 1987 was the 50 watt lead guitar head that carried over, but model 1986 (50W bass head) was all but identical, and continued with the same circuit design at least until 1977, maybe even 1978.

The specific amp model designs changed in pretty subtle ways, with many of the myths around higher gain amps probably having as much to do with pot tapers as any internal specification changes. There is also some confusion around US versions vs. rest of world. The designs of individual models never seem to have changed all that much, but they were moving from turret board amps to PCBs in the 70s, and the suppliers of capacitors were competing for price with new materials. Similarly carbon film resistors replaced carbon composite resistors during the amps' development period. Some believe these changes contributed to changes in the perceived "tone" of the amps.

It would be hard to say that Marshall tweaked for more gain over the years, but it does seem they wanted the amps to sound very loud when the volume control was set fairly low. I'm sure not many in 1972 tried full volume on a 100 watt Marshall into a 4x12, becuase they are pretty much deafening before the volume control gets to 2. Attenuators and power soaks were pretty much unheard of back then, and before 1975/6, there weren't any "Master Volume" amps produced by Marshall themselves.

You're not crazy. Not sure about tighter, but in Fractal world the Plexis do indeed sound more percussive once driven fairly hard. The lack of master volume (or set to 10 in ideal controls) means that once the input volume is set to get in the slightest crunchy, the power amp supply is starting to sag a bit, and the natural compression of this gives a load more percussive pick attack than the 2203/2204 models.

What you have to remember is that the 2204 (and to an extent the 2203, but, my god, they are both still loud!) the tones are achievable at "loud" rehearsal room or pub gig level. Driving a 100 watt 1959 Plexi with humbucking guitar pickups with the volume at 3 or 4 into a 4x12 (or 2 of them) is ridiculously loud even in a 200 seat venue. So yes, capable of of some things we never expected of the master volume Marshalls, but it was rare to be in a big enough room to exploit the way they sounded best for mere mortals.

(Back in 1989 or 90 I was told my stage volume level was "ridiculously loud" when sound-checking at Brixton Academy. I was using a plexi-reissue JTM45 1962 "Bluesbreaker", admittedly cranked up. At the time the venue held about 3000 people, and was reputed to be the largest indoor stage in Europe. The real problem was most likely that there was a lot of guitar in the backfold/sidefold, and it was coming out through front of house. Point remains, Marshalls sound good when played quite a bit louder than people are expecting. It's hard to appreciate that when listening to a model through headphones or studio monitors, as large movements of air are part of the overall experience.)

Liam

Well now that's quite a bit more than I bargained for, and that's not a complaint! Sounds like you've had some amazing experiences for me to add to my jealousy pile.

I think what I'm reading here is that, historically, 2204's were very obviously more gainy than 1987's if for no other reason than more gain was available to evaluate before losing one's hearing. There is some actual higher gain available, but it's maybe not as much as people expect, and the inherent design of the 1987 offers more percussion (what feels like tightness to me).

Also the gradual change in manufacturing materials and techniques coincidentally increased gain and brightness in later 1987's, along with maybe changes in values to make the amps give the impression of being more powerful under showroom conditions.
 
@sumitagarwal, that’s a neat summary of an unnecessarily long post. The only thing to add is how important Celestion G12 speakers are to the whole mix. Pre-Rola and early Rola have a warm mid focus that was never really replicated after (although I’ll admit I haven’t tried many of the
Celestion reissues). H vs. M, and 55Hz vs. 75Hz resonance also contribute massively to tonal differences. Kurt Mueller green backs, and black backs are maybe better at sounding “gainier”, but for me they lack the organic warmth of the earlier speakers. They make a bigger difference than capacitor types, and a way bigger difference than resistors.

Liam
 
The Super Lead model (not SLP). It sounds more like fuzz with gain and master over half way.
Is that the Brit Super? That's the model I've gravitated to. I can get it to sound like the plexi's and clean up a little more. I always go back to try the Plexi's but end up back at the Brit Super. And I use one of your Cab combos from your amp pack. It's the most 'open' sounding through my set up. My Brit Super preset is sort of tricked out with some tweaked parameters but it's taken a few years for me to get it there. It sounded good untweaked. Just don't over do the gain or the Master. I keep trying to nudge up the Master because logic tells me your supposed to if you want the pure overdriven harmonic sweet tone. But I keep it all pretty tame and the preset roars like my '73 JMP, which is my benchmark tone. YMMV of course. It probably sounds like ass through someone else's set up.
1701528065962.png
 
Is that the Brit Super? That's the model I've gravitated to. I can get it to sound like the plexi's and clean up a little more. I always go back to try the Plexi's but end up back at the Brit Super. And I use one of your Cab combos from your amp pack. It's the most 'open' sounding through my set up. My Brit Super preset is sort of tricked out with some tweaked parameters but it's taken a few years for me to get it there. It sounded good untweaked. Just don't over do the gain or the Master. I keep trying to nudge up the Master because logic tells me your supposed to if you want the pure overdriven harmonic sweet tone. But I keep it all pretty tame and the preset roars like my '73 JMP, which is my benchmark tone. YMMV of course. It probably sounds like ass through someone else's set up.
View attachment 130726
Brit Super is actually a take on the modded Appetite for Destruction amp: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...afs100-and-brit-super-marshall-afd100.111919/
 
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