Help with terrible sounding FRFR Setup

I always thought the whole idea of the sound guy mic'ing up your amp/cab was to get it to sound the same as your amp/cab you hear on stage. That's the sound you've worked so hard to obtain, that's the sound you want the audience to hear. Sure, it's damn near impossible to do that, but that's the goal. Using the Cooper Carter AITR I can finally get that. To me this whole IR stuff seems silly after doing AITR. If I can give the audience what the actual amp/cab sounds like to the performer, that's what I'm going to give to them.
 
I know your pain all too well.
You need to understand the Fletcher Munson curve.....its a bitch.
Get rid of all the low end and top end in your output to the FRFR.
Lose all of 31, 63 and half of 125 hz. Also lose all of 16K.
Then its all about amp and cabs that work loud.Have a look at this
Around 34:45
I hope this helps. Works for me. Really well.
 
musicman0001 said:
Then there is the FRFR speaker itself: they will color the sound.
Click to expand...
A good one is much flatter than a guitar cabinet, within a few dB within its usable range, which is much wider than a guitar cab. That’s why they have the FRFR moniker, “Full-Range, Flat-Response”. It’s not a specification, it’s a marketing term that some companies stretch a bit.

Some, like the Headrush products, need additional help which is the reason for that entire thread.

Good quality PA cabs, floor monitors, studio monitors, headphones are capable of being used.

“Full Range Flat Response (FRFR)” in the Wiki covers this well.

musicman0001 said:
You can make the headrush sound great for on stage, but then the FOH could be awfull and visa versa.
Click to expand...
Not at all. Use two different Out blocks. EQ one for the HR, don’t EQ the other and leave that for FOH to handle. Both FM units and the FX3 can be used this way. Section 4 in the manual covers this.
 
PETER NORTHCOTE said:
I know your pain all too well.
You need to understand the Fletcher Munson curve.....its a bitch.
Get rid of all the low end and top end in your output to the FRFR.
Lose all of 31, 63 and half of 125 hz. Also lose all of 16K.
Then its all about amp and cabs that work loud.Have a look at this
Around 34:45
I hope this helps. Works for me. Really well.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. I'll give this a try. Thanks!
 
Joel.Brown333 said:
I always thought the whole idea of the sound guy mic'ing up your amp/cab was to get it to sound the same as your amp/cab you hear on stage. That's the sound you've worked so hard to obtain, that's the sound you want the audience to hear.
Click to expand...
FOH puts a mic on a cab to have a signal that they can amplify and EQ to create a good mix. Whether your carefully sculpted tone makes it to the audience is a different question. If your signature sound already meets their needs then they will probably leave it alone. If your sound doesn’t fit the mix then odds are good they will surgically remove parts of it until it works. If they don’t then the band will not sound good and the sound people will get the blame, so they have an incentive to make changes when and where necessary.

The sound that the FOH mic hears is very much like what the mic hears in an IR capture session. The mic’s position, its pattern like cardioid or some variation, and its construction, dynamic, ribbon or condenser, affects how it reacts in close proximity to the speaker, and being next to the speaker it has a lot more lows and highs than we hear with our head off axis and 10 feet away.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
A good one is much flatter than a guitar cabinet, within a few dB within its usable range, which is much wider than a guitar cab. That’s why they have the FRFR moniker, “Full-Range, Flat-Response”. It’s not a specification, it’s a marketing term that some companies stretch a bit.

Some, like the Headrush products, need additional help which is the reason for that entire thread.

Good quality PA cabs, floor monitors, studio monitors, headphones are capable of being used.

“Full Range Flat Response (FRFR)” in the Wiki covers this well.


Not at all. Use two different Out blocks. EQ one for the HR, don’t EQ the other and leave that for FOH to handle. Both FM units and the FX3 can be used this way. Section 4 in the manual covers this.
Click to expand...
I was talking in general when you do not use peq or filters and same sound as output.

And i know what frfr is and means as i only use frfr 😉
 
PETER NORTHCOTE said:
I know your pain all too well.
You need to understand the Fletcher Munson curve.....its a bitch.
Get rid of all the low end and top end in your output to the FRFR.
Lose all of 31, 63 and half of 125 hz. Also lose all of 16K.
Then its all about amp and cabs that work loud.Have a look at this
Around 34:45
I hope this helps. Works for me. Really well.
Click to expand...

Wow, this made a HUGE difference. Literally night and day. It actually sounds good now. Thank you so much for the suggestion, Peter!
 
PETER NORTHCOTE said:
I know your pain all too well.
You need to understand the Fletcher Munson curve.....its a bitch.
Get rid of all the low end and top end in your output to the FRFR.
Lose all of 31, 63 and half of 125 hz. Also lose all of 16K.
Then its all about amp and cabs that work loud.Have a look at this
Around 34:45
I hope this helps. Works for me. Really well.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify for those playing along at home - for Fletcher Munson, you really need to tweak your presets at a performance volume.

This is because our ears are fine tuned to hear midrange (where human voices live) much better at low volume than they are at hearing low and high frequencies.

If you adjust presets at lower volume you will inevitably add too much bass and treble so you can hear it at that volume. Now, turn up to gig level and it sounds like poop!
 
Greg Ferguson said:
FOH puts a mic on a cab to have a signal that they can amplify and EQ to create a good mix. Whether your carefully sculpted tone makes it to the audience is a different question. If your signature sound already meets their needs then they will probably leave it alone. If your sound doesn’t fit the mix then odds are good they will surgically remove parts of it until it works. If they don’t then the band will not sound good and the sound people will get the blame, so they have an incentive to make changes when and where necessary.

The sound that the FOH mic hears is very much like what the mic hears in an IR capture session. The mic’s position, its pattern like cardioid or some variation, and its construction, dynamic, ribbon or condenser, affects how it reacts in close proximity to the speaker, and being next to the speaker it has a lot more lows and highs than we hear with our head off axis and 10 feet away.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's the goal. But for me, the Cooper Carter AITR, for the first time, makes it sound like the amp/cab on stage when going through the FOH, not a mic'd up version of it. All I want from the sound guy is make it sound like what we sound like, and don't screw with it. What you're talking about may be fine for other bands, or bands that don't understand tone and mixing. I do, and don't want yet another sound guy putting his spin on what he thinks it should be like. That's why I always walk out in front next to the sound guy during sound checks. It's my band, this what I want us to sound like - it's my product.

The goal I've had for decades is to not sound like a mic'd up amp but what the amp really sounds like to me on stage.
 
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