Help with power amp simulation settings vs real power amp

CyrielLenting

Inspired
Hey,

Last Friday I've been experimenting with recording with the FX2.
We've setup the following:
- AMP sim -> CAB sim -> DAW
- AMP sim -> Mesa 20:20 -> ISO CAB -> SM57 -> DAW
- AMP sim -> Mesa 20:20 -> Palmer DI -> DAW

The AMP sim used was a Mesa Mark IIc with fairly high gain.

All sounded good, but the sound using the 20:20+ ISO CAB was soo much more rich and 'alive'.
Currently I'm still using stock CAB IR's (German boutique) and firmware 9.02.

My goal is to use the FX2 only but first I need to get the sound really really good. (I used to use a Mesa Triaxis -> G-Force -> Mesa 20:20)

Which (AMP) settings will bring some life into the power amp section?
Which IR's do you suggest?

Thanks!
 
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The only way to do this, is to mess around with ir`s/eq IMO. Only you can tell what your ears and fingers percive as "alive".

Did you turn of poweramp sim when you used the power amps?

You can try to bump 500 (+2.5)/1k (+3.3)/2k (+2.5) in the global eq and see if it helps. If not, go flat again.
 
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The 20/20 has a pretty big sonic foot print. A tone match of the that with IR of the ISO cab would get you a lot closer to what your looking for.
 
Hey,

Last Friday I've been experimenting with recording with the FX2.
We've setup the following:
- AMP sim -> CAB sim -> DAW
- AMP sim -> Mesa 20:20 -> ISO CAB -> SM57 -> DAW
- AMP sim -> Mesa 20:20 -> Palmer DI -> DAW

The AMP sim used was a Mesa Mark IIc with fairly high gain.

All sounded good, but the sound using the 20:20+ ISO CAB was soo much more rich and 'alive'.
Currently I'm still using stock CAB IR's (German boutique) and firmware 9.02.

My goal is to use the FX2 only but first I need to get the sound really really good. (I used to use a Mesa Triaxis -> G-Force -> Mesa 20:20)

Which (AMP) settings will bring some life into the power amp section?
Which IR's do you suggest?

Thanks!

In my experience, it is nearly impossible to use the Axe direct into a monitor and get the same response that you would running it into a power amp and real 12 inch guitar speakers for most applications. Certain sounds, like very clean sounds or EXTREMELY distorted sounds (big chunky death metal sort of stuff) can work well through a monitor, but any sound that falls in between, from blues and RnB to hard rock, rely upon a certain amount of feedback between the guitar and the speakers. real speakers (pushed by a real tube power section) are a certain type of eq or filter, which vibrate the air, which in turn vibrate your strings, which in turn cause upper order harmonics to pop out of the notes you are playing and (because there is feedback, either slight, over the top or somewhere in between) cause many notes and chords that you play to actually RISE in volume and harmonic content after the initial attack as opposed to falling off, or perhaps staying the same.

So, you can get very close to the sound of speakers with cab sims, but once that sound is pumped back at your guitar with a full range monitor (and not a real guitar cab with a 12 run by a pushed power amp) you will find that you are going to get COMPLETELY different feedback characteristics, most of which are actually unpleasant sounding, and which will not positively impact the sounds you are making. In other words, the critical element of air vibrating your strings and causing upper order harmonics and feedback has been removed. That is the sound you are hearing and mo model can recreate it.

that being said, use the axe with real speakers, a real pushed power amp (your 20 20 is probably perfect as long as it provides you enough head room) and, use no cab sims and experiment with where to put the power amp settings like sag, and you will find that you suddenly have that critical element back, but with the massive array of fx and amp models that the Axefx has to offer.

For that matter ( I am going to start to experiment with this myself) having an FRFR powered monitor (it must be coaxial. Period. don't even THINK of using anything else) ALONG with a real amp or tube power amo and speakers and running it both as a wet dry setup or even as its own source for certain sounds that sound better in that setting (again, certain very clean sounds and VERY chunky distortion sounds) would give you the entire experience.

So, in short, a powered monitor will NEVER (regardless of which cab sim or eq setting you use) cause the type of feedback that a guitar cab (run by a pushed tube power) would, and without it, you will never achieve really great tone. You can get close, but it will always seem dead and lacking the voice like element. I would love to be proven wrong, but so far, no one has come up with a FRFR solution for controlled feedback ala Hendrix, Robben Ford, Eric Clapton, Duane Allman, Eric Johnson, Joe Bonamassa, and countless other great plays whose tones absolutely depend on it.
 
In my experience, it is nearly impossible to use the Axe direct into a monitor and get the same response that you would running it into a power amp and real 12 inch guitar speakers for most applications. Certain sounds, like very clean sounds or EXTREMELY distorted sounds (big chunky death metal sort of stuff) can work well through a monitor, but any sound that falls in between, from blues and RnB to hard rock, rely upon a certain amount of feedback between the guitar and the speakers. real speakers (pushed by a real tube power section) are a certain type of eq or filter, which vibrate the air, which in turn vibrate your strings, which in turn cause upper order harmonics to pop out of the notes you are playing and (because there is feedback, either slight, over the top or somewhere in between) cause many notes and chords that you play to actually RISE in volume and harmonic content after the initial attack as opposed to falling off, or perhaps staying the same.

So, you can get very close to the sound of speakers with cab sims, but once that sound is pumped back at your guitar with a full range monitor (and not a real guitar cab with a 12 run by a pushed power amp) you will find that you are going to get COMPLETELY different feedback characteristics, most of which are actually unpleasant sounding, and which will not positively impact the sounds you are making. In other words, the critical element of air vibrating your strings and causing upper order harmonics and feedback has been removed. That is the sound you are hearing and mo model can recreate it.

that being said, use the axe with real speakers, a real pushed power amp (your 20 20 is probably perfect as long as it provides you enough head room) and, use no cab sims and experiment with where to put the power amp settings like sag, and you will find that you suddenly have that critical element back, but with the massive array of fx and amp models that the Axefx has to offer.

For that matter ( I am going to start to experiment with this myself) having an FRFR powered monitor (it must be coaxial. Period. don't even THINK of using anything else) ALONG with a real amp or tube power amo and speakers and running it both as a wet dry setup or even as its own source for certain sounds that sound better in that setting (again, certain very clean sounds and VERY chunky distortion sounds) would give you the entire experience.

So, in short, a powered monitor will NEVER (regardless of which cab sim or eq setting you use) cause the type of feedback that a guitar cab (run by a pushed tube power) would, and without it, you will never achieve really great tone. You can get close, but it will always seem dead and lacking the voice like element. I would love to be proven wrong, but so far, no one has come up with a FRFR solution for controlled feedback ala Hendrix, Robben Ford, Eric Clapton, Duane Allman, Eric Johnson, Joe Bonamassa, and countless other great plays whose tones absolutely depend on it.

How often is a 100 w amp really pushed?? Unless you play on a stadium gig or using a brake box, of course. I have had everything from 50 - 120 w amps and never been able to really push them. My mesa RKII was up to 120 w with all 6 tube in action. Really fun by myself, but useless with the band (if i wanted to hear anything from anybody else. After 25 years of playing with tubes and bands, and of course countless of hours of fun alone (read: LOUD) i have permanent hearing damage.

I personally get better feeling with recording with the Axe, than i ever did in any studio. I get feedback at whisper volum (not on all amps). It´s all about the frequency. And my live sound works just as good as with my amps... For me ;)
 
How often is a 100 w amp really pushed?? Unless you play on a stadium gig or using a brake box, of course. I have had everything from 50 - 120 w amps and never been able to really push them. My mesa RKII was up to 120 w with all 6 tube in action. Really fun by myself, but useless with the band (if i wanted to hear anything from anybody else. After 25 years of playing with tubes and bands, and of course countless of hours of fun alone (read: LOUD) i have permanent hearing damage.

I personally get better feeling with recording with the Axe, than i ever did in any studio. I get feedback at whisper volum (not on all amps). It´s all about the frequency. And my live sound works just as good as with my amps... For me ;)

The type of feedback I am talking about simply cannot happen at whisper volumes. Sound pressure level is a contributing factor.

regarding the degree to which your power amp is pushed, well that is up to you and what you play, but you will notice that in the list of artists that I outlined above, none of them got their sounds through a very powerful Mesa tube power amp, but rather through amps whose power sections were meant to be pushed in a live band setting. They played loudly, yes, but to great effect.

That being said, the degree to which an amp is pushed is only part of the equation. The bigger portion of it is that it is pushing REAL 12 inch speakers, which act as the filter through which pleasing frequencies shake you strings in pleasing ways, causing feedback (sometimes rather subtle feedback) that color the harmonic content of everything that you play. it causes notes to not only not fall off, but to rise in volume, while moving from a somewhat darker initial attack to a brighter sustaining note.

its not that you cant get some very cool sounds with the axe through a powered monitor. You can. But you cannot get what I am referring to in my post, and it is an indispensable part of the classic sounds of most guitar players whom I admire, and consequently, my sound.

It is literally the REASON that guitar players have liked to play loud throughout the decades. With an axefx as part of the equation, you can get a much larger array of sounds through one amp, and achieve something like the effects I am referring to at somewhat lower volumes, but it is simply not going to happen through a powered monitor exclusively. Think of it like this. You are in the studio. In one room is your real amp, cranked up and tuned to a sound that, when your guitar is at or near 10 is dripping feedack driven sustain. Then you walk into the other room (the control room) and start playing the same sound through studio monitors, and you notice that you cannot control the feedback in the same way, or maybe even at all. you try different eq curves, mikes, compression, what have you but nothing gets close. You even turn them way up, but that only sounds shill and aweful. Nothing works UNTIL you walk back into the same room the amp is in, and suddenly its those 12s that are shaking the air, which shake you strings, which then respond with upper order harmonic feed back, and you are back in business, and you can turn off all of those nasty eqs and such, because the sound you are creating can only happen when a guitar is in proximity to louder 12 inch speakers. ( that scenario is not ALWAYS the case depending on the sound you are going after, but it often is)
 
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