Help requested with pushed / mid-gain tones

B

bkd_guitarist

Inspired
Noob here, all of a month into my Axe-FX odyssey. Overall I'm quite thrilled with my Ultra so far, and I've actually found it relatively easy to get very satisfying high-gain and clean sounds.

Where I'm struggling is with the pushed, mid-gain stuff. I'm having a hard time getting a tone with warmth, clarity, and depth to it. Mainly I've been experimenting with the Blackface and Dumble amps, and everything I'm coming up with either sounds harsh or is just kind of flat and two-dimensional, without much depth.

For a tone reference to hear what I'm going for, here are a couple of links. The first is "Building A Mystery" by Sarah McLachlan. I've always really loved the rhythm guitar tone in this song. You can hear it well in the intro, as well as in the turnaround at about 0:43.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLzjNBFcw08


And here is an absolutely sick, ridiculously good clip by the great Mark Knopfler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjJzlIedCuo

Hopefully those give an idea of the tones I'm going for. I'm not just requesting a patch - please teach me how to fish! I'd love any recommendations on amp / cab / drive blocks, routing, EQ, tricks of the trade, etc.

Setup: Ultra 8.07, FRFR
Guitars: PRS Singlecut Satin, Tom Anderson Classic
Styles: Classic rock, hard rock, alt rock

Thanks much!
 
The whole 'key' to me is finding the balance between your gains/volumes first and then the EQ. Then for 'touch up' into the advanced tab.

Pick the amp block and cab block of your choice. Set everything to noon. Get your cab setup.

Set your drive in the amp block and then the 'secret' for mid-gain stuff; pull the master volume down. Down to like 2.99. Then turn UP your output to -2db. Now readjust your preamp drive to taste and set your low/mid/high/presence to taste. Then check your dampening and depth. Try each one at a time; they are very interactive. (*Certain Vox/Matchess and other EL84 amps have the dampening all the way off in the AxeFX). Use your ears, not your eyes.

In the advanced tab, set your low pass to about 120hz or so (this is HIGHLY variable on your guitar, taste, and the amp block) to tighten up the bottom. (If you need to go back and adjust your EQ/Depth/Dampening... go ahead and do it now).

I mess with other settings in there, but at this point, your amp should be as juicy and musical as you desire and further tweaking is really just to refine.

If it sounds like poo right now, you need to take a deeper look into your cab sim. I like to set the "air" at 70% and start at 3500kHz to start before I tweak around. IMHO, that pulls a lot of the boxy character out of the cab. I leave the drive at zero.

I am a proponent of custom IR's and especially mixing them up to create a 'idealized' cab IR; but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
 
Scott, thanks for the detailed input. That gives me plenty to work on.

I'm very intrigued by the Red Wirez...will probably spring for the Big Box here in the near future, after I've gotten a better handle on the native cab sims.
 
I tried this technique of keeping the master low...very impressed. My sounds seem bigger, wider and more present. Very pleased.
 
LJHood said:
I tried this technique of keeping the master low...very impressed. My sounds seem bigger, wider and more present. Very pleased.
Click to expand...

I've found it makes things 'jucier' which is a silly word to use, but it does describe how it 'opens' things up. Makes it sing more when pushed; it also removes that 'harsh' top end you *can* get when the master is cranked and the preamp drive is cranked. Let's it breath dynamically.
 
Well, that does it! I'm going to try this whole master turned down business when I get home. I'm needing to do some tweaking anyway, I might as well start with trying that. I have been fighting some harshness in the highs, so maybe this will solve that. I'm a huge fan of juicy as well, so anytime that word gets tossed around it grabs my ears.

D
 
LJHood said:
bigger, wider and more present. Very pleased.
Click to expand...

bobenzyte.jpg
 
dk_ace said:
Well, that does it! I'm going to try this whole master turned down business when I get home. I'm needing to do some tweaking anyway, I might as well start with trying that. I have been fighting some harshness in the highs, so maybe this will solve that. I'm a huge fan of juicy as well, so anytime that word gets tossed around it grabs my ears.

D
Click to expand...

Careful tossing 'juicy' around... :shock:

:D

Remember when you do this, to turn up the overall output (to the right of the MV setting) to like -2db. Then you can really work the preamp gain up without it 'crowding' up the tone and getting 'mushed' and 'hard' if that makes any sense.

I dig it. Allows the volume on the guitar to get MUCH more interactive with the amp block.
 
I'll be interested to try this as well. I know, we should use our ears and not theory, but isn't turning the master down the same as lowering/removing the poweramp from the equation? In a traditional tube amp, the coveted "sweet spot" is when you can crank it enough to get some good power tube distortion along with the preamp distortion (which is typically more harsh/grainy by itself). I also know that cranking the master too high can lead to a dull, compressed mess, but too low and you get grainy distortion. I guess the key is just using your ears to find the sweet spot in the middle somewhere??
 
Scott

Great tips man, Have been playing with your concept, and they sound great. Especially on my Plexi2 and JSM 800 models. Very nice.
Gonna give a few a go at tomorrows gig.

Up to now I've been running the power amps up at about 9 oclock based on pushing the power stage - and also Im sure I read something about it in the manual for lower gain amps as well.
But this seems to work nicely.

thanks for the tips- please keep em coming.
 
InsideOut said:
I'll be interested to try this as well. I know, we should use our ears and not theory, but isn't turning the master down the same as lowering/removing the poweramp from the equation? In a traditional tube amp, the coveted "sweet spot" is when you can crank it enough to get some good power tube distortion along with the preamp distortion (which is typically more harsh/grainy by itself). I also know that cranking the master too high can lead to a dull, compressed mess, but too low and you get grainy distortion. I guess the key is just using your ears to find the sweet spot in the middle somewhere??
Click to expand...

The poweramp still has an effect no matter what the volume setting. These days there are lots of amps, especially high gain ones that get their tone primarily from the preamp so cranking these might just make the tone messy. Some poweramps when cranked also sound harsh whereas their preamp gain can be pretty smooth, on others it's the other way around. That's why you should try different combinations of drive and master.
 
Master as low as 2.99? Interesting, I'll give it a try. for sure.

I've always found that keeping the Master lower gave me more solid tones, with more fundamental and less mush (except for a lot of "juice" from Fender models, perhaps). Never would have thought of lowering it that far . . . My version of myopia, I suppose.

Scott, do you do this for the amp models where the originals don't have MV's?
 
Brian G said:
Master as low as 2.99? Interesting, I'll give it a try. for sure.

I've always found that keeping the Master lower gave me more solid tones, with more fundamental and less mush (except for a lot of "juice" from Fender models, perhaps). Never would have thought of lowering it that far . . . My version of myopia, I suppose.

Scott, do you do this for the amp models where the originals don't have MV's?
Click to expand...

Yes and no. Depends. I try it all over and just use my ears; there's no 'rule' I follow.

I've found that the preamp 'drive', "master" and depth/dampening are extremely interactive and I will generally play with all of them to see what sounds and feels best.
 
I messed with it some last night, and while I didn't like it around 2.99 for the tones I was looking for I did get closer to the target by lowering the master some.

I was going for a certain Plexi tone, so I didn't expect an extremely low master to get it, but it did open my eyes some. I haven't really messed with lowering the master in the past, but I found that it really helps you dial in exactly how much preamp and poweramp saturation you're getting. I found that some of my go-to sounds were better by playing with this mix some.

Thanks for the tip Scott! I probably wouldn't have tried that if you hadn't suggested it. I'm still a little bit tied to the old way of doing things (Master Volume = bad) :)

D
 
SparkyG said:
Gigged my new tones last night, much more open and big sounding, They worked well.

Thanks again
Click to expand...

That's been my exact experience. When you crank up to gig levels, it really gets expressive and reactive to the volume knob on the guitar, moreso than with the MV cranked up. This is especially true on pushed clean and mid-gain tones IMHO.
 
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