Help me out with "Mark" amp settings

[james...]

I'm talking about USA lead 1 and 2.

How do you coax a thick midrangey high gain lead sound out of these? What tricks usually work?

I like a lot of mids in my sound and most of the high gain amps I've been using (powerball, deliverance, diezel, recto) all have kind of a scooped character to them. It seems like the only gainey amps in the axe with mids are the marshalls but they aren't quite heavy enough for the lead sounds I'm trying to get.

Then someone told me that I needed to be using the USA lead if I wanted more mids...only problem is, I am really bad at dialing in this amp sim. Thus I made this topic.

 

[Radley]

James,

All you need is to add a graphic EQ after the Amps, just like the originals had - almost every owner used some version of the classic V-shape for the graphic because the amps tended to have a bit TOO much mids. Keep the amp's bass setting pretty conservative (keeps the tone tight) - if you need more low end, just kick it up on the graphic.

~Rad~

 

[Crucified]

James,

All you need is to add a graphic EQ after the Amps, just like the originals had - almost every owner used some version of the classic V-shape for the graphic because the amps tended to have a bit TOO much mids. Keep the amp's bass setting pretty conservative (keeps the tone tight) - if you need more low end, just kick it up on the graphic.

~Rad~

exactly this. also, put a drive block in front of the amp. i usually use a ts808 i think with the germainium diode selected, put the drive almost all the way down and bump the level up a lot.

 

[shredi knight]

What they both said - Drive before the amp sim, eq after (I use the parametric eq). I set the amp sim up the way you would set up a real Mark amp - Bass around 2, mids anywhere from 5 -7.5, treble anywhere from 6.5 - 8.0, and I usually have the presence at 2.52. I also keep the Master low at a little over 3.00 so most of the gain is coming from the preamp section, with it's drive set fairly high (6.50 -7.50).

Hope that helps. I can give more detailed settings for the drive, parametric eq, and the rest of the amp controls later on if you want.

 

[Zen Guitar]

What Shredi said ...

I don't use any pedal or clean boost, myself. Not that this isn't valid... I just like what the Mark does on its own. Try setting your gain and drive between 6-9. Think of the gain as increasing the output of your pick-ups (not really, but just picture this) and think of the drive as being the distortion factor. Equal settings are a good start. 8 and 8 are a good place to begin.

Mark series amps should be set with a very low bass. 2 is also the setting I use in the Axe and on my actual Mk IV head. You get your thump back with the graphic EQ (I also use the parametric on the Axe--Still hoping for a Mesa type graphic EQ for these amps from Cliff <SQUEAK> ). I set my mids pretty high on the rotary controls and use the classic V curve on the graphic to even things out. THis will help push the preamp nicely, but not give you a nasally sound. I set my presence pretty aggressively (3.5-5). Remember that the treble control is the kingpin. If you set it high, you'll coax more gain out of the pre. However, the other controls will be less responsive. True on all tube amps. Doubly true on Boogies. Small tweaks on a Boogie go a long way. Very different from dialing a Plexi.

Once you have the rotary controls dialed, try starting with the classic V curve on the post EQ. Listen to what it sounds like in and out and hear what it's doing to your lows highs and mids. Then start to tweak each band a little at a time. Take a break for a few minutes between adjustments and let your ears cool. Also good to tweak with a CD on that you like the guitar tones of as it gives you a consistent reference.

For cabs, try a combination of two Recto types. Recto 1 and Cali are my favs in combination. Also try a 57 on one and something else on the other. When I interviewed Petrucci he mentioned using an MD421 to add the girth to the 57. I think that the R-121 is another great mic to go with a 57. Experiment and dial to taste.

Hope this helps in getting you started.

Cheers,
-Matt

 

[DNW]

I don't use any pedal or clean boost, myself. Not that this isn't valid... I just like what the Mark does on its own. Try setting your gain and drive between 6-9. Think of the gain as increasing the output of your pick-ups (not really, but just picture this) and think of the drive as being the distortion factor. Equal settings are a good start. 8 and 8 are a good place to begin.

+1

Other amps occasionally, but I don't really find a need for any kind of boost or tone shaping before the USA Leads, or real Marks for that matter. With my old Mark III I did use a TS-9 (and a Boss PQ-4) to get my lead sound, but more because of the limited number of channels in the real thing. With the Axe, I'd just dial a slightly different tone without a boost.

As has been said, bass knob fairly low, treble knob fairly high. The thing to understand is that the Mark series rotary EQ controls are pre-gain, whereas you'll find most high gainers have post-gain EQ controls. Rather than shaping the overall sound, they're more shaping the character of the tone. Put a PEQ block after it to simulate the graphic EQ on the amp, and use that to shape the overall sound.

The cabs I use with my USA Lead 2 patch are the 4x12 Brit and 4x12 Cali, I think with R121s on both. I don't particularly like either of those cabs on their own, but together I think they work very nicely.

 

[james...]

WOW GREAT ADVICE GUYS!

So what kind of numbers should I be shooting for on the PEQ?

 

[DNW]

WOW GREAT ADVICE GUYS!

So what kind of numbers should I be shooting for on the PEQ?

The Axe wiki I believe has figures for simulating the GEQ on the Marks with a PEQ block.

A few people are claiming it doesn't sound 100% right, and maybe it doesn't. From memory, I've got mine set pretty similar to the Axe wiki's info (done before I knew that info was there), and it works fine for me. I'm not too worried about being able to copy the sound of a real Mark amp, only that I'm getting the sound I want, and the PEQ is doing the job for me.

The other thing is, with my Mark III and Quad, as much as I loved those bits of gear, there was always something I couldn't dial out with the onboard GEQ. While it can make huge changes to the sound, it is at the same time quite limited. You don't have that same limitation with the Axe. If say the middle band setting in the EQ isn't quite doing it for you, you can move it around a bit to suit. If there's a specific little area between two bands that's bugging you, you can drop another EQ block after it and EQ it out with a lil notch. You can go as mental as you want with it. The real GEQ only has its 5 fixed bands, and anything else would require additional gear.

 

[joegold]

I'm talking about USA lead 1 and 2.

How do you coax a thick midrangey high gain lead sound out of these? What tricks usually work?

I like a lot of mids in my sound and most of the high gain amps I've been using (powerball, deliverance, diezel, recto) all have kind of a scooped character to them. It seems like the only gainey amps in the axe with mids are the marshalls but they aren't quite heavy enough for the lead sounds I'm trying to get.

Then someone told me that I needed to be using the USA lead if I wanted more mids...only problem is, I am really bad at dialing in this amp sim. Thus I made this topic.

I could have sworn that I responded to this earlier today but I don't see it.

The gist of it was that you could try putting a mid boost (one of the Drive Block types I believe) in front of the Amp Block.

 

[shredi knight]

I personally don't care for the "real" eq settings that are on the wiki, and instead use the actual frequencies (or as close as I can get to them with the Axe FX's parametric eq) that are displayed on the Mesa Mark amps:

If you can make it out (I think my monitor is just too dark), this is what the Mesa "Classic V" looks like as well. On the Axe's parametric eq, I actually cut the 240Hz some and instead dial in some of the amp sims Deep control to add some of the low end (I think I have it at 6.57 on the USA Leads and IIC+ sims). I also set the 6600Hz flat and let the amp sim handle all the high end. All the Q's are at the default (.707), except the 80Hz, which is at .812. All of this is based on my ears and what sounds good to me with my guitar. [Scott Peterson]As always, YMMV[/Scott Peterson].

Here's a few of clips of my old rig (I recently switched to using studio monitors), which was the Axe FX with a Carvin DCM600 SS power amp and 2 Avatar 4x12 cabs. This is the USA Lead 1 amp sim, using the Full OD drive in front to tighten the tone up (Drive 0, Level full) and the above described parametric eq settings. These are audio extracted from videos shot with a digital camera and are not direct recorded. The first and last clips are with the camera in the same room as the cabs , the second and third clips are with the camera in the next room (the rig was up loud for all 4). Excuse the horrid playing, at the time I just did these as sound tests without the intention of anyone hearing them:



http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=18324




http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/80851- ... VTone2.mp3



(Having some fun with delay and feedback on these ones)



http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/77218- ... MuchFu.mp3



http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/14586- ... ,TooMu.mp3

 

[joegold]

I think the OP is asking about boosting the mids, not cutting them.

 

[james...]

You're right but it's still really good advice I've been getting.

 

[shredi knight]

I think the OP is asking about boosting the mids, not cutting them.

But like the real things, the Mark Series amp sims are very mid heavy, probably too much so for most people for a metal type tone. You kind of have to scoop the mids just to get it to sound even. Listen to the clips I posted, do they really sound that scooped? And I was doing like a -10.50dB mid cut with the parametric eq on those patches.

James- One thing you might consider instead of using the USA amp sims, is use the one you want (I think you said in your other thread you were using one of the Recto sims), and change the Tonestack type to a different one that has more mids (like the USA Lead tonestack). Also, turning up the bias and/or the transformer match control in the advanced menu of the amp block seems to give more thickness to the tone. You might try messing with those.

 

[DNW]

I think the OP is asking about boosting the mids, not cutting them.

As SK said, the USA Leads (and the amps they're based on) are very mid-heavy amps. Even with the middle slider dropped right down to the bottom, if you let your ears settle a bit, compare it to other metal tones on CDs and whatnot, it does still have a fair bit of mids in it. The clip I did of To Live is To Die, aiming for that kind of AJFA tone (someone asked for it, I dunno why) took two PEQ blocks to actually get that mid-scooped sound.

Even if he wanted to keep more mids in there, our suggestions IMO still stand. The rotary control suggestions would still be appropriate, and the PEQ suggestions would still be appropriate. The only difference would be, he might not want to drop the middle PEQ band as far down, or possibly not at all. But I don't think anyone was suggesting he had to drop the mids right down anyway.


The other amp model the OP might want to try is the Cornford. Very bass heavy, and has yes it a very loose flubby tone, but if you put a drive or filter block in front (to cut the lows going into the amp block) you can really tighten it up a lot while still keeping the huge thick midrange sound. I use a filter block in front, set for a low shelf (from memory). I didn't spend much time experimenting with it, so there might be a better sounding alternative for me, but what I ended up with still sounds sweet as.

 

[james...]

Yeah no worries you guys, this thread has been a goldmine for me. So much good info you guys have thrown at me... I'm impressed.

You mentioned the Cornford. As a matter of fact I have been using that for my mid-high gain tones. It doesn't quite do it for lead but any strum work I use it for is golden. I just take the bass way down and tweak from there. It's a great amp with tone for days.

I'm gonna really play with the mark IV tomorrow. Then I'm gonna use some other amps I like for lead and give them a USA lead 1 tonestack. Or maybe a JCM800 tonestack. I can't wait.

 

[steveb]

What they all said. On a real Mark, the 750 slider is god. Slight movement of that puppy makes huge changes to the sound, it's right in the "wheelhouse" of the Mark tone characteristics. Unlike most, I generally boost the upper mids with the 2200 slider and leave the 6600 near neutral. Then I use the 750 to drive between "scooped metal" or "fusiony middy lead". Of course with the axe you could set up mulitple EQ's and footswitch them if you want. On a real Mark IV I found a nice balance point where the EQ active would scoop for rhythm and with the EQ footswitched out gave the natural midrangy ( and very cutting ) Mark lead tone.

 

[Radley]

Don't tell anyone, but I have gotten some very good Mesa combo sounds using other (non Mesa) amps - when you start to crank the master volume, those typically Mesa mids just start to happen naturally (you may need to back off on the preamp gain a bit when you do this)

~Rad~

 

[DNW]

You mentioned the Cornford. As a matter of fact I have been using that for my mid-high gain tones. It doesn't quite do it for lead but any strum work I use it for is golden. I just take the bass way down and tweak from there. It's a great amp with tone for days.

When you say you brought the bass way down, are you talking about the amp block bass, or reducing bass before the amp block? Even bringing the amp bass way down, the pregain bass for that model is just way too much for me. I can take a bit of flub in a lead tone, but the Cornford to me was just mental. Using the filter block out front made the Cornford not only useable for me, but it's now a model I really like for leads.

As Radley mentioned as well... the master volume control! I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Crank that up pretty high, and you'll start to get some really nice mid-range from just about any gainy amp model in there.

 

[james...]

Well gang I'm happy to report that after some tweaking, the Mark IV is my new high gain lead sound.

I pretty much did what you all said. There were a few very minor tweaks but overall it's your standard Mark IV + V shape EQ deal. I love it. Very thick and full yet it cuts through, and not too harsh.

 

[Rich G.]

Well gang I'm happy to report that after some tweaking, the Mark IV is my new high gain lead sound.

I pretty much did what you all said. There were a few very minor tweaks but overall it's your standard Mark IV + V shape EQ deal. I love it. Very thick and full yet it cuts through, and not too harsh.

Clips and settings please!