Having problem figuring out latching pedal

G

Gibson335

Member
Hi Guys,

First of all let me thank you all for your efforts to make this forum so great. I can't even imagine having the axe fx if this forum didn't exist. In fact, the internet and mfgr forums probably allow a product like this to even be viable. If not for this forum, can you imagine the customer service boiler room Cliff would need on hand to answer all our questions? posting.php?mode=post&f=23#

I bought my Ultra about 1 month ago. I've been playing for over 30 years in some sort of gigging situation for most of that time. I've never been a gear slut, just always used what was at hand, added on over the years and tried to make it all work. Needless to say, the Ultra has been a MAJOR shift from what I was used too. I absolutely LOVE the Ultra!! But I have to admit, in addition to learning how to operate the Ultra, sussing out this whole midi thing, trying to learn the Axe edit software, it's been a gloriously frustrating month! On top of that, I think the Ultra has opened up so many tonal possibilities to me that I'm also having a bit of a Tone Identity Crisis (TIC). I can find all sorts of tones that I can get lost in playing to the point I'm looking up 2 hrs later just as giddy as when I started wondering where the time went. But I'm finding it hard to decide what my "go to" patches are for playing live. So many flavors it's almost impossible to decide. Baskin-Robbins got nothing on the Ultra! Just a little bit of an unexpected symptom of being a new convert. I'm starting to wrap my brain around the unit, but still have a long way to go. For the time being I'll be doing a lot more reading and learning than I will be doing posting, but I hope to eventually be able to add to the group.

Anyway, on to my question.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to hook up a simple latching pedal in order to bypass an assigned effect block. I've got an expression pedal working and can assign it to any or multiple effects in order to modify tones. Works perfect and as expected. I have that plugged into Ped 1 jack on the Ultra.

I have plugged the latching pedal into the Ped 2 jack on the Ultra. This pedal is an old MESA preamp switching pedal. Basically just a bare alum box with an on/off latching switch in the middle. I'm sure the pedal works as I also use it to bypass a Lexicon delay unit I've used forever.
So.. I've plugged the pedal into Ped 2 on the back of the Ultra.
I go to I/O menu and page over to the Ctrl page.
Toggle down to External 2
Turn dial until I see pedal 2 - If I hit <enter> here I get a box that says "Learning". I assume this is for an expression pedal to learn the pedal travel.
I have to push <exit> in order to this to stop.
I've tried multiple times. Sometimes just setting to pedal 2 and moving on, sometimes stepping on the pedal a few times while it's "learning". Does not seem to make any difference.
Do I need to do something else in order for the Ultra to save this setting?

Next I toggle farther down to find the effect I want to control. For this instance I want to bypass the Delay 1 block. So I set Dly 1 BP to Pedal 2.

Then I page over to the <Pedal> page in the I/O menu.
I set Pedal 1 type to: Continuous - this works great
I set Pedal 2 type to: Latching

I step on pedal and it won't bypass the delay.
I'm at a loss here. I've searched the forums, search through the Wiki pages, and I cannot find a simple explanation of how to hook up the pedal and set it to turn on/off an effect block. It tells you lots about the different types of pedals, and what can be done to control effect blocks, but no simple step by step instructions on how to accomplish this with a latching pedal.

I must really be a dim bulb because I've searched and can't seem to find a single inquiry about how to accomplish this on the forums so I guess I'm the first that can't figure it out. posting.php?mode=post&f=23#

Can anybody help?? Thanks in advance!
Steve
 
Hi, welcome to the forum and congrats on the Axe! :)
And first, thank you for listing the steps you took!
Red highlights are unnecessary...

Gibson335 said:
So.. I've plugged the pedal into Ped 2 on the back of the Ultra.
I go to I/O menu and page over to the Ctrl page.
Toggle down to External 2
Turn dial until I see pedal 2
If I hit <enter> here I get a box that says "Learning". I assume this is for an expression pedal to learn the pedal travel.
I have to push <exit> in order to this to stop.
Click to expand...
That's for learning a MIDI CC#. If you're not sure what CC# your MIDI controller sends out, you can just Learn, press the MIDI pedal, and the Axe-Fx will set the function to whatever CC# it receives first.

Gibson335 said:
I've tried multiple times. Sometimes just setting to pedal 2 and moving on, sometimes stepping on the pedal a few times while it's "learning". Does not seem to make any difference.
Do I need to do something else in order for the Ultra to save this setting?
Click to expand...
Just look at the screen and read the instructions -- move the expression pedal through it's range and press Enter when you think you've done that enough. There's no real user feedback on if it worked or not until you try it.

Gibson335 said:
Next I toggle farther down to find the effect I want to control. For this instance I want to bypass the Delay 1 block. So I set Dly 1 BP to Pedal 2.

Then I page over to the <Pedal> page in the I/O menu.
[... expression pedal config comments ...]
I set Pedal 2 type to: Latching
Click to expand...
Have you also tried Momentary?

Gibson335 said:
I step on pedal and it won't bypass the delay.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, it should.

Also, I don't think it matters, but it's probably not a bad idea to, on the Ctrl page, set External 2 back to None.
 
Thanks godprobe for replying and trying to help. Sorry about the red highlights - it doesn't show up that way on my screen but I was trying to use Smilies and I guess I've got to figure how to correctly use those too!! (this old codger is being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century- I still use rabbit ears for TV!)

Ok, in order to avoid confusion let's just deal with the latching pedal to bypass an effect block. My expression pedal works perfectly and as expected in Ped 1 jack -had no problem setting this up.

I want to use the latching switch pedal to simply bypass an effect block (in this case Delay 1).

I've plugged the cable from the Latching pedal box into the PED 2 jack on the back of the Ultra
I go to the I/O menu and page over to the <Ctrl> page
I toggle down to External 2 and turn dial until I see Pedal 2 - leave it on that.
I toggle further down to DLY 1 BP, turn dial until I see Pedal 2 - leave it on that.
Move over to the <Pedal> page in the I/O menu.
toggle down to Pedal 2 - turn dial until it says "latching" - leave it on that.

Now it seems like I should be able to step on the latching pedal and alternate the on/off state of the Delay 1 effect block. However the latching pedal does nothing. I've got delay 1 on in the patch no matter how many times I step on the pedal switch.

I could try to set pedal 2 to momentary, but I don't think that's the problem. The pedal works like a latching pedal with other equipment I use with this pedal (and makes the click when you step on the switch). The box containing the switch does have an LED to show on/off state, but this light also does not light up when I've attached the pedal to the Ultra as described above. It lights up with every other piece of equipment I've ever attached the pedal too, so this also indicates that I've not set up the Ultra to receive the on/off instructions correctly.

Do I need to move to the Dly 1 block on the layout page and change some setting? With my expression pedal I do have to set up the effect block I want to control by opening the modifier page and setting <Source Controller> to extrnl 1 - again this works perfectly.

Just tried again. Same steps as above but using the axe edit I move mouse over and click on Delay 1 block. Set bypass mode to "mute fx out". Right click on <bypass mode>. I get the modifier setup screen. Set <source controller> to "extrnl 2".
I still cannot get the pedal to control the bypass (on/off) state of the Delay 1 block.

Maybe the easiest way to solve this problem is if someone could just give me the step by step instructions on how to set up a latching switch pedal to control the on/off state of a Delay 1 effect block. If I can get that working, I'm sure I can then figure out how to control on/off state for any other effect block. I must just be missing a step somewhere. Would there be any reason that a normal latching switch pedal with an LED status (on/off) indicator would not work with the Ultra?

Thanks again for any help you can provide.
Steve
 
Ha, no, I added the red highlights in my post. :D
My intended meaning by highlighting those parts was: "this stuff here in the red, you don't need to do that" ;)

Latching vs. momentary in a switch is a purely electrical thing -- just because it clicks, doesn't mean anything. Latching basically toggles between two states. Momentary is sending a constant state until broken. So detecting latching means detecting a change between two states. Detecting momentary means detecting a lapse in a single state. That's the real brief explanation -- anyway, give momentary a try, just to see. :)

The LED thing is interesting... I've stayed away from LEDs on pedals simply because I don't want to deal with additional batteries (I don't have a clue if they actually need them...). But, it's making me wonder what kind of cable you're using? Is it regular 1/4" guitar cable? Try a stereo (TRS) cable. (Can't recall if normal guitar cable is just Tip/Sleeve or Tip/Ring but if TRS doesn't work, that may need swapping.)

No, you shouldn't have to change any settings on the Delay 1 block.
However, definitely do remove the Bypass Mode External 2 controller assignment you mention. Don't assign any modifier there for now.

Also, if you have a brand name or link for the switch you're using, we might be able to check out the technical specs to see if there's anything else we might be missing.
 
I have two latching switches connected to the rear pedal jacks. Just a box with two old Wah switches. They control Volume inc/dec. They work perfectly.
And AFAIK you did it right.

Set pedal type to latching and assign it to the delay bypass or External2 and set the delay's bypass to that. Either should work.
You have now done both at the same time. Maybe you should try just one method at once as Godprobe mentioned in the above post.

If you stick a normal guitar cable (mono jack, tip/shaft) in the pedal in of the Axe-FX and shortcircuit the other end of the cable (connect the tip and shaft with something conducive). Does the Axe-FX switch then? Because that's what a latching pedal does. It connects the tip to the ring.
A momentary switch connects when depressed and immediately releases again. So it sends a short pulse. It still clicks.

If shorting doesn't work, I think there might be something wrong with your Axe-FX, if it does there's something wrong with the switch. Do you have a multi-meter to check if it actually works? Or a battery and a small light bulb?

The LED might not be any indication. If it lights up, apparently the mother-unit is sending it some current or there is a battery in there. If the Axe-FX doesn't send enough current it will not light even though it does connect.
Come to think of it... Maybe the LED is the problem. It could be putting too much of a strain on the Axe-FX to read the switch position.
I'm not hindered by any electronics knowledge (at least about LEDs) so I might be talking electronic nonsense here, but who knows?

Try shorting the Axe's pedal input.
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks godprobe and Dutch for all your help and suggestions. I think I've figured out what was wrong. I worked through all your suggestions and nothing worked. Made sure my latching switch pedal and TS mono guitar cable worked by plugging into my Lexicon delay unit and I could switch between on/bypass status. Even tried a stereo TRS cable from the pedal to the Axe fx with no luck. Was just about ready to give up. Wishing I had some other on/off switch pedal to try and I spied an old Fender Twin REV/VIB double switch pedal laying forlorn in the corner. On a whim just to try anything, I plug that into Ped 2 Jack and it worked! Only one switch works, the other switch doesn't do anything. But it confirms that the axe fx is set up right and than SOME kind of switch will work to control the bypass state of the effects block!

So now this begs the question, why do you suppose the MESA switch pedal won't control the Axe fx? It's worked on every other piece of equipment I've tried it with as a simple on/off bypass switch or even as a channel changing switch in the case of an amp. The LED even lights up to show status with other equipment when I was sometimes surprised it would (due to very old equipment). It must have something to do with the little LED circuit in the pedal? Is it just wired opposite? (TS instead of RS) I would have thought using a stereo TRS cable this would make a connection either way it was wired. The pedal itself to answer godprobe's question is just a bare alum (no paint) box with a switchcraft type switch in the middle and a little LED above the switch. I guess it's a MESA product because it came as the footswitch with an old MESA Mark III combo I have. Doesn't have any writing or product # on it at all. Built like a tank though so I was hoping to use it. I hope that the axe fx will support a on/off pedal that does have a LED status light though. I plan to assign it to different effects blocks depending on the patch and it would be nice to make sure I know what the status is of an effect before I do my Townsend windmill at the wedding gig.

One last question before I've talked your ear off. Can either of you or anybody recommend a good latching switch pedal to buy for bypassing the Ultra that you know works, preferably with an status LED if the Utra will light it?

Thanks again guys for all your help and ideas to solve another technology crisis.
Steve
 
I use a latching pedal as pedal 2 +external 2. I bypass FX in the patch itself. I use a regular old guitar chord (not TRS and it works perfectly for 18 months
 
As I wrote above, I made my own with just a couple of leftover Wah switches. Single pole on/off. The simplest there is.

I built an LED into both of my previous wahs, so I have visual feedback on the status. But that means it needs a double pole switch. The switches in those 80s/90s Dunlop and Vox wah's are single pole. So I had two of these laying around.

Really, that's all it took. Any simple switch should work.

The pedal jacks on the back are stereo jacks (TRS), but as far as we know only the tip and the sleeve are functional. The ring doesn't do anything. So any switch should just make or break the contact between the tip and sleeve.


Did you try just a patch cable, mono jack and shortcircuit that end? Touch (and keep connected) both tip and sleeve with something iron or copper? That works for me. But you need to really leave it on or off so make contact and stay in contact for it to simulate the switch being on.

I did some experimenting, plugged a cable into the pedal2 port. It appears the Axe-FX pedal jack puts about 3.8V on the contacts, but hardly any current. So it can't power the LED, that draws about 20mA at 3V. I think that's because it is probably a "logical sensing circuit" rather than some simple relay switch. That is also probably why it can accept both momentary and latching switches AND rocker pedals.
Anyway.
I took some alligator clips and an LED I have floating around here. I connected them to the tip and sleeve of the cable. When wired correctly it passed current so the switch in the Axe-FX worked. My "mix main" went down. When wired backwards it did not work. Nothing happened. In both cases the LED did not light up.

An LED is a Diode. Diodes by nature are one-way-streets for current. They pass current one way and not the other. They are mostly used to prevent current from running the wrong way. If my meager self-amassed electronics knowledge doesn't fail me.



Could you open your MESA switch up and take a snapshot of the insides of that MESA switch? Do the Fender as well, for comparison.
Try to bypass the LED circuit for now, just wire the jack straight into the switch. You could fit a dpdt switch later and run the LED from a 9V battery with a resistor in series. If you need it.
 
Dutch
My boss latching pedal uses a reg guitar cable and has a very nice working red led when active-plugged into pedal 2
Edit: Seems my led works w/o the Axe even being on so it's in my switch-Learned something new
 
Thanks again everyone for helping me with the pedal bypass problem. I'm just getting some time to get back with the axe fx tonight so I'll try your suggestion Dutch to short across a patch cord but I'm pretty sure that will work (act like as switch) since I've been able to get the Fender REV/VIB switch to work. I'll try to open the MESA switch this weekend and take a look. 3 gigs over the weekend so I'm not sure I'll have time or not yet.

It is starting to sound like the Axe fx won't support a status LED on the switch pedal without a battery. From the readings you took Dutch, and from Stratman68's comments that his switch with LED lights whether it's connected to the Axe fx or not. There must be a battery in his switch pedal for it to light without power coming from the cable. Like Stratman68, I've always just used a regular guitar cable with the MESA switch and it's always worked with whatever equipment I used it with. Must have just been dumb luck that the different equipment was wired the same.

Stratman68 - Do you know what mfgr/model of switch pedal you have? I don't really like the idea of a battery due to the maintenance of the battery, but I'd still prefer that over just a switch without an LED. Like I say, it's a little embarrassing to strum the first chord of a sensitive love song with a screaming Plexi with drive on full patch! Heh..

Anyway I'll mess with it again tonight and see if I come up with anymore information.

Thanks again!
Gibson335
 
Hi
It's a Boss FS-5L-Built like a tank. Also, I have had this for a year and changed the battery once. It only uses power when the LED is on. I use it with the LED signifying FX is on. So the battery life is pretty hefty. I am in a home studio but I play "every" night. It also has a polarity switch. I like using it as abn external because I can use it for different things in different patches. Learned that valuable tid bit here of course. I do mostly use it for a drive pedal though. I use my Mission EP-1 as an external also (thru my midi mate) Generally to control the level of an effect-like the drive, or a delay level, etc. Then I use plugged into pedal 1 of Ultra my Boss FV-500H as out 1 volume control-so it works on all patches. I had a rough time at first but reading here and asking questions got me to a setup I like. Tons of control.
 
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