Having a difficult time with live tones

TheGoatLord

TheGoatLord

Experienced
So I know that recording tones don't transfer well to live and that is the exact problem I'm having. I've only used the Axe to record but now we are rehearsing and I'm having a hard time getting some good rock tones. Does anyone have any tips for eq/cabs/mics/comp (that sort of stuff) for making big live tones that sound full and don't get lost with everything? Thanks!
 
i can probably assume some of the problems you're having, but if you can try to describe what is missing, or what you want it to sound like we can help you better.

the most common thing is too much bass, too much treble, lost in the mix, no clarity, too much gain/feedback, etc.

first off, what gear are you using? guitar, speakers (full range or guitar amp and cab), how do you connect, how loud are you playing (with a loud drummer?) etc.

just remember you are now dealing with more air between the speakers and the listener - and you're probably closer to the speaker than the audience, so they still get a different sound...

try backing off the gain/drive in your patches, cut bass and treble and boost some of the mid frequencies.

generally, live i set my graphic eq to a "frowny" face to cut the bass and treble at the loud volumes. just that gets me very close to the perfect sound. from there i might adjust the mids if i hear something funny in the room.
 
luke said:
Good live tone is often annoyingly bright practing alone tone. In the band you need to find your little slice of the EQ curve.
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+1000

Volume and space also has a huge impact on "how" you hear "what" you hear. Throw all the other instruments battling for sonic space into the mix and it turns into a moving target with every room you play. The good news is that by listening and finding your space with a combination of tone and volume (not just volume like I see a lot of guitar players do), you eventually gain enough experience to get it right most of the time.

You will also find that less gain live = much more definition live and easier to get your own little slice of heaven to operate in. I always find my patches for live are way less "gainy" than what I would use to sit around and record with for sure.
 
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I put a hump in my mids using the global eq recently for live. Helped me cut through without changing all my patches
 
I always cut 4k and 60hz for live use. with the ultra I had to tweak around with peq and such to get what I was after but with the 2 its super easy to get fun usable tones from practically every amp. Also the mindset that alone tone doesn't' sound good in the mix and visa versa I have found to be somewhat erroneous. For me it has more to do with where you can comfortably play at what gain value. It seems that less is always more and less really only serves to make you play better anyhow. Too much gain in live scenario and trying to get clarity in a live mix are diametrically opposed imho... Good Luck
 
Your overall approach to the stage sound will come into play. Are you using backline amps? wedges? ears? drum fills?

Too much compression, from using a compressor or from too much gain, will affect your pick transients. This makes it hard to hear articulation and washes out the guitars.

With wedges and ears, I prefer to compress the aux sends vs. compressing the guitar preset. That way the vox, etc. plus the guitars are squashed together. A separate wedge dedicated to nothing but guitar is great too if you can swing it.

Already said above, for EQ, use low cut, high cut, and mid boost. The quickest for me is the global eq.

Richard
 
Though this sounds like a simple enough question, the answer(s) may vary quite a bit from room to room, depending on acoustic treatment, stage volume, size/output of FOH PA, complexity and power of stage monitoring (wedges), whether In-Ear monitors are used, size of stage and proximity to other musicians (drummer), style of music (volume & stage db level), etc.

- what style of music?
- what are you using for an amp/speaker?
- what instrumentation including # of vocals?
- how loud are the other musicians, and what power amplification/speakers are they using (what are you competing with)?
- is your drummer loud?
- on the whole, is your band's stage volume loud, soft, somewhere in the middle? In control, or not?
- what size stages will be typical for you?
- what size PA (FOH) will be typical for you?
- what quality and amount of stage monitors will be typical, and how many discrete mixes?
- is your lead singer a pussy?
- is anyone using in-ear-monitors (if not, have you or any of your band mates considered this?)
- will you be using a qualified sound mixer/engineer at your gigs to assist you?

Depending on the answers to the above, you may find that you may: 1) not need to do ANYTHING to the tones that you are currently happy with - or - 2) do some major surgery to your tones (globally or individually) in order to hear yourself properly with relatively good tone - or - 3) something in between #1 & #2.

From personal experience, I can tell you that some venues/nightclubs are just set up in such a way (stage size, acoustic treatments, etc.) that makes getting a very good sound at a reasonable volume a breeze. Then there are others where the stage is cramped, you're right on top of the drummer, and the acoustics are highly reflective (Irish Pubs for example, with lots of tin ceilings, laquered hard wood surfaces, glass and mirrors) where no matter how loud you turn up or how much you adjust, nothing seems to sound right and clarity is almost impossible to obtain.

This also doesn't take into account how accoustics change over the course of a night: empty club = lots of sound rumbling around making good stage sound more of a challenge. packed house = lots of bodies and humidity to absorb sound, making stage sound easier to control.

just my 2 cents...if it really matters that much to you, get in-ear-monitors and use your stage speakers as "token" source of volume for the stage mix and/or audience (in smaller venues). - OR - get a very good, hi fidelity, high power stage wedge pointed at your face that will simply overpower any other sound sources it has to compete with...and tell your bandmates to go screw if they don't like it! LOL j/k (maybe not)
 
Speaking for my self here. I know most people use amp sims for live but I gave up on it. I love it for recording or practicing with phones but I could never get it to sound like an open back amp, because it's not that. I just use it as a virtual pedal board with my red plate amp, sounds great. But I also rarely use a pa because most of my gigs are small rooms jazz clubs and restaurants.I would think it would be cool with full pa.
 
So practically, on the global eq, if we cut 60hz and 4k, how much do we cut? And which (500, 1k)mids are you boosting and by how much? Thanks
 
ari said:
So practically, on the global eq, if we cut 60hz and 4k, how much do we cut? And which (500, 1k)mids are you boosting and by how much? Thanks
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I'm not gonna say this is a definitive answer, I'll leave that to people that have a firmer grasp on live mix EQ'ing, but it seems to me that mid boosting the same EQ's for all the different amps might not be a great way to bring out the differences between the amps. There's probably a range of mid frequencies you can boost to cut through the mix, but within that range, the frequency in specific is dependent on the tonestack of the specifc amp you're using? Just throwing that out there. Let me know if I'm totally off base.
 
ari said:
So practically, on the global eq, if we cut 60hz and 4k, how much do we cut? And which (500, 1k)mids are you boosting and by how much? Thanks
Click to expand...

For classic rock, I start by dumping everything low and high and boost 1K by 2.5db:

31 -12
63 -6
125 -3
250 -1
500 0
1K +2.5
2K +.05
4K -2 <------- this is sometimes higher depending on the room
8K -6
16K -12

Killing the lows sounds like @ss soloed but lets the bass and drum kit sound bigger. So it would depend on what you are going for.

Richard
 
I think its definitely amp dependent but this is what I do. Thru my macki speakers at low volume I dial in a general sound of what I'm shooting for ie: clean, rhythm, lead and set gain levels accordingly. I force myself to set the gain on rhythm and lead patches two notches below where it is comfortable. When I get the soound I think I'm looking for I crank it up and cut and boost where I think it's appropriate. Using this method the sound guy consistantly tells me that the new patches I bring are 80 to 90 percent. We then do minor tweaks from there...usually cuts in the lows and highs.
 
Okay so I'm trying the eq thing and getting good overall results. I think I've found my biggest issue. Knowing nothing about cabinet/mic selection... I can dial in a good tone fairly easly but when it comes to picking the cab/mic combo for them I end up just ruining the live tone. I play mostly higher gain stuff, fas modern with an ts808 in front of it, but also a lot of the marshalls. I guess the best way to describe what I'm going for is BIG. The group I'm working with only uses one guitar so making the tone sound big, present, and clear is my main concern. The frown face eq has gotten me much closer but any advice on cab/mic selection is more than welcome!
 
If you've described your live setup, I missed it. It makes all the difference in being able to give good advice. Are you using guitar cabs? Powered monitors? Running through direct to FOH? What type of amp? What type of music? I'd say taking mics out of the equation would be the first step, that's just another layer of EQ that probably requires more knowledge and tweaking ability than what it takes to dial in a really good basic tone.
 
kush said:
If you've described your live setup, I missed it. It makes all the difference in being able to give good advice. Are you using guitar cabs? Powered monitors? Running through direct to FOH? What type of amp? What type of music? I'd say taking mics out of the equation would be the first step, that's just another layer of EQ that probably requires more knowledge and tweaking ability than what it takes to dial in a really good basic tone.
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Sorry, I'm just going direct to FOH. I'm playing more pop rock stuff but with a very modern sound for the most part. I'm using the FAS Modern, Vox AC30, and marshall plexi treble as my main amps. I haven't even tried not using a mic sim because I was under the impression that the mic was a big part of the tone people are used to hearing. I suppose it would be much easier to just do away with them lol.
 
luke said:
Good live tone is often annoyingly bright practing alone tone. In the band you need to find your little slice of the EQ curve.
Click to expand...

Being a relative newbie I never understood when guys were talking about fitting in the mix. Then when I got some master tracks and tossed them in a DAW I was absolutely shocked how awful some guitar parts sound alone and it made sense. Finding that slice as you say is an art in itself.
 
I'm absolutely advocating that you can have your cake (solo and recording tones) and eat it too (live tones) with... one method.

I shared a thread in the Axe-FX II Presets thread re-tweaking the first 49 or so factory presets with the NF/FF IR mix that is the the biggest - IMHO - key to doing this. I've gigged and recorded this extensively since late 2011. Seek that thread, look at/try out the presets and try your own takes on them. I prefer generally to use an Own Hammer "OH" NF IR mixed with a Jay Mitchell "JM" FF IR... but anything works like this. Crank it up to over +90db (and preferably live +120db) and you'll 'get' it. Play them for 10 minutes or so and then try to switch back to just a NF IR. It'll open your ears.
 
Scott Peterson said:
I'm absolutely advocating that you can have your cake (solo and recording tones) and eat it too (live tones) with... one method.

I shared a thread in the Axe-FX II Presets thread re-tweaking the first 49 or so factory presets with the NF/FF IR mix that is the the biggest - IMHO - key to doing this. I've gigged and recorded this extensively since late 2011. Seek that thread, look at/try out the presets and try your own takes on them. I prefer generally to use an Own Hammer "OH" NF IR mixed with a Jay Mitchell "JM" FF IR... but anything works like this. Crank it up to over +90db (and preferably live +120db) and you'll 'get' it. Play them for 10 minutes or so and then try to switch back to just a NF IR. It'll open your ears.
Click to expand...

I'll check it out. Thanks Scott!
 
Scott Peterson said:
I'm absolutely advocating that you can have your cake (solo and recording tones) and eat it too (live tones) with... one method.

I shared a thread in the Axe-FX II Presets thread re-tweaking the first 49 or so factory presets with the NF/FF IR mix that is the the biggest - IMHO - key to doing this. I've gigged and recorded this extensively since late 2011. Seek that thread, look at/try out the presets and try your own takes on them. I prefer generally to use an Own Hammer "OH" NF IR mixed with a Jay Mitchell "JM" FF IR... but anything works like this. Crank it up to over +90db (and preferably live +120db) and you'll 'get' it. Play them for 10 minutes or so and then try to switch back to just a NF IR. It'll open your ears.
Click to expand...

Gave your presets a shot and wanted to say THANK YOU. I play in a few different bands and the styles vary quite a bit, the heavier band is LOUD and I've had a struggle getting a patch I was comfortable with volume wise that also sounded good but I really dug the Uber patch in your reworked patches (all of em sound great). Minor tweaking and had a jam with the band last night, was night and day, cut through and sounded great.

Thanks again,
Dave
 
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