Gigging/touring with the fractal unit only (without carrying any stage momitoring unit)

P

p123223

New Member
Hello...
New to the forum..contemplating multiple gigging rig scenarios,and wanted to hear what are the first hand experiences with the one as described...aimed at the most lightweight and portable scenario.

Obviously, it is a huge gamble, relying on whatever that is available at the venue for the purpose of stage monitor, being it some kind of amp (surely used with cab and poweramp emulatuion off on fractal) or whatever at hand.
yet, the good side is that you are still feeding the FOH with the sound you have created and retaining the full chain control, being the main benefit of going direct since it became possible,

All of it with aim to travel light as possible, yet to deliver quality tone to the audience (yes, may be a sacrifice on your own stage feel, but oh well...luckily outputs are flexible, so anything powered can serve the purpose in worst case scenario). IEM is also a possible and functional solution, but not a fan, although might be a good idea to think in that direction, at least for the superpordable scenario.

Context if matters would be alternative metal trio (meaning venues not necessery being top notch equipped most probably), so while the ideal scenario would be big loud amps on stage, i must think of portable lighttravel option where i would still keep full control regarding theguitar sound going to the audience

Looking forward to hear some thoughts and hopefuly first hand experiences with such scenarios
 
Relying on random crappy house vocal monitors for your guitar sound on stage is rolling bad dice IMO.

Any chance you could use in-ears?
 
Dave Merrill said:
Relying on random crappy house vocal monitors for your guitar sound on stage is rolling bad dice IMO.

Any chance you could use in-ears?
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Yes, its a really bad gamble...
But currently contemplating all possible scenarious, as i am at the stage of trying to slowly go from a one man band to potential live act...so exploring the options, prior purchasing the needed gear...
While fully aware that tthis scenario is the worst, still may be not that bad if the unit that goes direct is good enough...which fractal surely would be
 
You could request a good powered speaker from the backline or house sound company. Most would have a Yamaha, QSC or similar. I find that running one output of my FM9/FM3 to my own speaker and one to FOH allows me to dial in the exact level I need to be comfortable onstage without affecting the house mix. The other issue that I've run into when relying on the sound man to send my guitar back to me through the house monitors is that they are usually heavily eq'd and your patches may not sound the same.
 
p123223 said:
Yes, its a really bad gamble...
But currently contemplating all possible scenarious, as i am at the stage of trying to slowly go from a one man band to potential live act...so exploring the options, prior purchasing the needed gear...
While fully aware that tthis scenario is the worst, still may be not that bad if the unit that goes direct is good enough...which fractal surely would be
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Not trying to give you a hard time, but the speaker you're playing through has a huge effect on what it sounds like.
Imagine your heavy tones coming out through a transistor radio, or like @joegtr said, through a monitor EQ'd to keep the vocal mics from feeding back.
 
I attempted to do what the OP is describing for about six months - too many venues not able to handle a DI’ed guitar for some reason, never sure how I really sounded FOH, festival sound vendors expecting a guitar cab, etc. I finally figured out that the only foolproof scenario was running my AXE FX >power amp > traditional guitar cab. I used an Engl power amp in to a 2x12 greenback cab at first but switched to a smaller, lighter Matrix amp into a 1x12 Alnico Blue cab. I was super pleased with my tone and stage volumes. I preferred the guitar cab to a FRFR speaker. And I like a good stage mix - hearing each other on stage is important.
 
I run my guitar & keys through the FM9 (thank you preset levelling).
I always, always have my own Headrush 108, it's only 20lbs.
It happens way too often members can't hear themselves or like joegtr said unwanted effects put on.
 
AndyOrr said:
I attempted to do what the OP is describing for about six months - too many venues not able to handle a DI’ed guitar for some reason, never sure how I really sounded FOH, festival sound vendors expecting a guitar cab, etc. I finally figured out that the only foolproof scenario was running my AXE FX >power amp > traditional guitar cab. I used an Engl power amp in to a 2x12 greenback cab at first but switched to a smaller, lighter Matrix amp into a 1x12 Alnico Blue cab. I was super pleased with my tone and stage volumes. I preferred the guitar cab to a FRFR speaker. And I like a good stage mix - hearing each other on stage is important.
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I simply refuse to bring out gear I do not need because sound guys cant do their job with expectations in this millennium. I too have come across the “but where’s the speaker” or “look, the signal is too hot” while the mic pre gain is on +40. Great apes moving faders would do a better job. Simply buying a bunch of speakers and a mixer is not enough. They have no idea how to run their own stuff half the time.
 
Bruce Sokolovic said:
I simply refuse to bring out gear I do not need because sound guys cant do their job with expectations in this millennium. I too have come across the “but where’s the speaker” or “look, the signal is too hot” while the mic pre gain is on +40. Great apes moving faders would do a better job. Simply buying a bunch of speakers and a mixer is not enough. They have no idea how to run their own stuff half the time.
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My son is a pro sound engineer - Blackbird trained in Nashville. He has run FOH and monitors for some of the biggest names out there. We‘ve discussed this. He says that the hard part with a DI guitar are the level changes when the guitar player is using different presets with different amps on a modeler throughout the night - especially in music that he’s not super familiar with. He’ll think the mix is rock solid and then realize the guitar player‘s level dropped out or vice-versa, it’s suddenly too loud. He has one of my old Axe FX units so he knows firsthand what he’s dealing with and will ask the guitar player specifically if there are amp changes in his set and where.

The bottom line for modelers. If you’re relying on the FOH to deliver your best mix, it’s best to bring your own FOH. Otherwise, expect a little of what you described.
 
AndyOrr said:
My son is a pro sound engineer - Blackbird trained in Nashville. He has run FOH and monitors for some of the biggest names out there. We‘ve discussed this. He says that the hard part with a DI guitar are the level changes when the guitar player is using different presets with different amps on a modeler throughout the night - especially in music that he’s not super familiar with. He’ll think the mix is rock solid and then realize the guitar player‘s level dropped out or vice-versa, it’s suddenly too loud. He has one of my old Axe FX units so he knows firsthand what he’s dealing with and will ask the guitar player specifically if there are amp changes in his set and where.

The bottom line for modelers. If you’re relying on the FOH to deliver your best mix, it’s best to bring your own FOH. Otherwise, expect a little of what you described.
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Well, the other part is guitar players cant be great apes, either. I deliver consistent volume, unless the boost is intentional.
 
I've gigged/toured with just the Fractal and at times I've needed to rely on the house sound - most often festival stages.
It's a roll of the dice, and there will inevitably be times where you're not thrilled with your tone on stage, but I've found for the most part the sound out front is good (at least from what I've been told).
It's really the monitoring that is the issue - monitor guys often put an EQ on the monitors hyping the upper midrange so singers can really hear themselves cut through. So your guitar ends up being icepick harsh. All you can do in that case is play through it and trust it sounds good out front.
If you are playing clubs with no idea what is on stage for you to use - yeeesh, that is really a gamble. If you are touring and need to save the space I'd try to get as many of the clubs to provide you with something decent, or at least find out what they have so you can make a plan. Have some quick controls available to EQ the monitor signal on the fly.
I think you should really try to find a way to have the same monitor at every gig - I've toured with a single EV ELX12p and also with a pair of Redsound MF10s and both worked great.
 
Cainer said:
I've gigged/toured with just the Fractal and at times I've needed to rely on the house sound - most often festival stages.
It's a roll of the dice, and there will inevitably be times where you're not thrilled with your tone on stage, but I've found for the most part the sound out front is good (at least from what I've been told).
It's really the monitoring that is the issue - monitor guys often put an EQ on the monitors hyping the upper midrange so singers can really hear themselves cut through. So your guitar ends up being icepick harsh. All you can do in that case is play through it and trust it sounds good out front.
If you are playing clubs with no idea what is on stage for you to use - yeeesh, that is really a gamble. If you are touring and need to save the space I'd try to get as many of the clubs to provide you with something decent, or at least find out what they have so you can make a plan. Have some quick controls available to EQ the monitor signal on the fly.
I think you should really try to find a way to have the same monitor at every gig - I've toured with a single EV ELX12p and also with a pair of Redsound MF10s and both worked great.
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Yup. It really comes down to monitoring if you’re going to have a good night or not. What I do when the monitor is too ice pickish is either move away from it or throw a piece of clothing over it like a jacket or sweater. Worked for me in the past. I’ve learned to ask for next to nothing from FOH. They’re usually already aggravated they have to run stereo XLR, I quit while I’m ahead.
 
I have powered monitors, and have used them for rehearsals and for rare gigs where there isn’t a typical PA, but the vast majority of the time I rely on house monitors. I (and almost everyone else) do this for sax, mandolin/acoustic guitar, accordion, and other instruments, so why should guitar be any different? It’s their job to mix the sound, including monitors.
 
I hear the concerns here and they are valid.

For what it's worth:
First let me say I am playing Fractal whenever I play, no matter where. Direct to FOH and then using IEM's.
When the truck drives to a venue, I'm using the Axe III and FC12, when I fly I'm using an FM9 and IEM's.

My experience:
Back when we didn't have a FOH tech traveling with us, things were NOT consistent night to night or venue to venue. It was constantly challenging and we never really knew how we sounded to the audience. Honestly, it was a bit scary.
We have had our FOH tech now for a year now, traveling with us consistently. At this point, we bring our own Midas Rig and it runs our FOH and our IEM's. Our tech basically asks the venue for their speaker boxes. He uses their boxes in a LEFT/RIGHT/SUB config and mixes us from our system. This method brings us consistency in our ears, AND in the FOH because no matter what the actual PA is, he can dial us to where "we sound like we should" basically. Plus, we have presets that are already "close" depending on what is there at any venue.
Now obviously there will always be slight exceptions, and that's why having a great tech is a imperative. I'm also assuming you are not traveling around playing only bars. We are playing theaters, Performing Arts Centers, festivals, etc. Both indoor and outdoor venues. Sometimes we are the headliner and sometimes it's a quick change over because we are a supporting act for a National band. Regardless, we do the same thing wherever we play at this point. We are literally a self contained unit and we just plug our Midas Rig in to whatever speakers are provided.

Now, if you aren't going to use IEM's, just understand you will never be able to get the kind of consistency you ideally want. Sometimes it will be great, yet sometimes not so much. There are just too many options, unless I suppose you "ask for" specific monitors from every venue...although I know from experience that they will NOT be provided consistently. You may get "similar," yet sound companies have what they have regardless of your asks. Sometimes you might get a specific cab or monitor set up, but I wouldn't count on it.
That's why the IEM route is the way to go, IMO. It's also what most touring acts use...not all of course.

Anyway, all that said, I also have used the Fractal with a Solid State power amp (Matrix or Seymour Duncan) and into a cabinet(s) AS WELL AS, used a FRFR monitor for stage volume as well. Both are viable and can be good sounding options. It really depends on what you are trying to achieve. It just means carrying more stuff, literally.

If you are looking for the lightest, easiest set-up, I'd recommend the FM9 direct to FOH and the whole band on IEM's.
For us, it just works and it's truly the most consistent every night, from venue to venue. Also, I've gotten more compliments since we've gone this way than I ever have before. So that gives me the feedback from the audience that I want to hear.
If you have any specific questions about my/our setup, I'd be happy to answer what I can.
Hope this is helpful for you.

Best of luck
 
GtarLover said:
I hear the concerns here and they are valid.

For what it's worth:
First let me say I am playing Fractal whenever I play, no matter where. Direct to FOH and then using IEM's.
When the truck drives to a venue, I'm using the Axe III and FC12, when I fly I'm using an FM9 and IEM's.

My experience:
Back when we didn't have a FOH tech traveling with us, things were NOT consistent night to night or venue to venue. It was constantly challenging and we never really knew how we sounded to the audience. Honestly, it was a bit scary.
We have had our FOH tech now for a year now, traveling with us consistently. At this point, we bring our own Midas Rig and it runs our FOH and our IEM's. Our tech basically asks the venue for their speaker boxes. He uses their boxes in a LEFT/RIGHT/SUB config and mixes us from our system. This method brings us consistency in our ears, AND in the FOH because no matter what the actual PA is, he can dial us to where "we sound like we should" basically. Plus, we have presets that are already "close" depending on what is there at any venue.
Now obviously there will always be slight exceptions, and that's why having a great tech is a imperative. I'm also assuming you are not traveling around playing only bars. We are playing theaters, Performing Arts Centers, festivals, etc. Both indoor and outdoor venues. Sometimes we are the headliner and sometimes it's a quick change over because we are a supporting act for a National band. Regardless, we do the same thing wherever we play at this point. We are literally a self contained unit and we just plug our Midas Rig in to whatever speakers are provided.

Now, if you aren't going to use IEM's, just understand you will never be able to get the kind of consistency you ideally want. Sometimes it will be great, yet sometimes not so much. There are just too many options, unless I suppose you "ask for" specific monitors from every venue...although I know from experience that they will NOT be provided consistently. You may get "similar," yet sound companies have what they have regardless of your asks. Sometimes you might get a specific cab or monitor set up, but I wouldn't count on it.
That's why the IEM route is the way to go, IMO. It's also what most touring acts use...not all of course.

Anyway, all that said, I also have used the Fractal with a Solid State power amp (Matrix or Seymour Duncan) and into a cabinet(s) AS WELL AS, used a FRFR monitor for stage volume as well. Both are viable and can be good sounding options. It really depends on what you are trying to achieve. It just means carrying more stuff, literally.

If you are looking for the lightest, easiest set-up, I'd recommend the FM9 direct to FOH and the whole band on IEM's.
For us, it just works and it's truly the most consistent every night, from venue to venue. Also, I've gotten more compliments since we've gone this way than I ever have before. So that gives me the feedback from the audience that I want to hear.
If you have any specific questions about my/our setup, I'd be happy to answer what I can.
Hope this is helpful for you.

Best of luck
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We also carry our own Soundcraft rig which we use for providing four separate mixes for everyone's IEM's, and to provide stems to FOH.

Perfectly consistent mixes for everyone regardless of the venue's acoustics, along with the perfectly consistant instrument sounds from Slate and Roland (drums), L6 (bass), Fractal (guitar)/and TC (vocals). In addition, sans backline and wedges we travel much lighter, soundchecks take no more than 10 minutes, and if the promoter is supplying PA they don't need wedges and a monitor board, which saves them expenses as well.
 
Are you planning to tour, OP? Or stay local?

Fas + monitor device and go. Sound will be sound, best you can do is roll with it or hire a sound person for all your shows.

“What if..?” If its an unlikely scenario, meh. Be realistic about where you will play and how often and go from there.
 
Gigged and toured with all fractal products since the Ultra. Also worked with some well known bands. As many have echoed, if you're relying on the house sound and sound engineer, you are rolling the dice. You can have some great ones and have a stellar mix, and other times you'll have someone who's asleep at the wheel.

Whatever you can control yourself will help mitigate against this. You can bring your own wedge and use a separate output to adjust the volume on the fly one a spin of the knob, use a power amp and cabinet and adjust the power amp as well.

What i've been doing lately is using the Ernie Ball Combination Headphone/Guitar combination cable and using in ears. I patch my rig into FOH, have a separate output being fed into my in-ears from the headphone jack and I can turn up and down the mix on the fly. I can also take a feed straight from the snake, FOH or stage monitor (from the venue) and patch that into input 2 of my fractal units and adjust that up or down on the fly in my mix.

I've been very pleased with the results and I don't have to schlep a monitor or cabinet to the gig.

https://www.ernieball.com/guitar-accessories/instrument-cables/headphone-cables#P06411

 
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