G3’s opinion on amp modeling

I wonder when Mr Vai last tried Fractal's amp models? When I got my III just before Cygnus first came out there may have been a few models I found a bit flat/dull, or 'anaemic' to borrow his phrase (about 2 minute mark), but with all Cliff's eurekas and steady improvements, where we are at now with the current firmware is stunning to me and every model has it's associated depth, smoothness, grit, character and life. On the one hand, being the guitar guru/nerd he is, you would think he does keep up with such developments BUT on the other hand, with his amps permanently dialled in to his liking in the studio, and after years of refinement, does he bother? It would be sad to think of him spending plenty of time dialling in/experimenting with all the FX yet never clicking on an amp block. If he did he might even find himself looking at all his outboard and mics and thinking, "I really don't need all of this any more. I could sell it and afford to buy a few new guitars!"
 
It's interesting to discuss, but there is as much mental as physical about it... and that's not to deny there is something physical. But I do have to wonder, if someone tone matched an artist's setup, then diverted his signal unbeknownst to him, would he notice? Right away? Eventually? Ever? A lot of the confidence and inspiration in using your rig is knowing it, feeling familiar, having "tested it on the battlefield." But in a blind test, if such a thing could be accomplished, I wonder if some of these guys might not be asking the tech "What did you do to my rig tonight? It's playing awesome!"

To be clear, I'm only saying that the comfort and inspiration comes from more than the sound and feel alone. Just listening to them speak, I have to wonder where that dividing line would be.
 
Applies tinfoil hat

Vai has signature gear. If said gear gets him money through royalties, it's smarter for him to endorse that product as the best there is. As a touring musician, you're basically a glorified merch salesman with a very elaborate marketing campaign. I do think Vai has some magic ears, though. Maybe he can truly hear things your average person isn't hearing.

So, I suspect it's smarter for him to endorse something that actually makes him money in a hard to sustain career. Love the guy and what he does. And I'm okay with him doing whatever he must to keep it all going.
 
Using the variables of the stage in a live setting which all would apply to the tube counterpart. I don't see how they are all that different to the point of his argument. I hear things that I didn't use to hear with modeling, specifically with FAS and when taken at face value with sound and feel so similar it's pretty hard to continue to wave that flag!
 
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In a live environment I would go with whatever crutch I preferred to lean on for whatever reason, practicalities allowing, to do the job. In a private creative environment, even without time/space/cost allowances, as soon as you are tracking with headphones on or sat in a control room playing through monitors you have removed any immediacy of you, your guitar and your amp and are playing a different ball game. I don't think the returns are diminishing any more, they are barely existent. I think I would take the Axe over amp, outboard and mics and throw any savings into tracking to tape. That is something I still have some shreds of sentimentality about, rightly or wrongly, and that is more about the overall sonic scape than the guitar tone and just reveals I don't listen to much post 90's music :)
 
Also, when playing heavily effected solo-y stuff the integrity of the amp goes out the window to a large degree. I bet the 80's guys with their racks of mega expensive at the time processors would have killed for a Fractal. The evening when I first plugged in the AXE and went through the presets, with a press of the button 'Spandex and Hairspray' came up and in that moment I understood what it was to be the lead guitarist in a hair metal band. Just like that.
 
I think what Joe is hinting at is there is more to inspiration than sound. There's an emotional element as well. Plugging into a tube amp may sound exactly the same as modeler, but knowing I'm connected to something that glows and has a rich history makes me feel different about the experience of playing, and I'll play different because of that emotional response. Similarly, I'll play different if the studio is lit by candle light. Playing through a tube amp has the same kind of effect. I think we're at the point where the gap between digital and tubes can't be closed by technology, because the difference is emotional.
 
I think they contradicted themselves a bit. On one hand Steve is saying the the floor, the ceiling, the walls, the cymbals and the acoustic treatment of the room all affect how the amp sounds. No doubt that's true.

Then when Joe speaks, he says he has (and could) stand in the audience at a given distance to hear other bands play, entirely through modelers and not know the difference. And to @GlennO's point about what Joe was saying beyond that; it was a "feel" or emotional/inspirational thing. If you're inspired by your gear and the sound you're getting, you "play" better and the audience can/would pick up on that. I'm sure that's part of the equation too.

I think Steve has and does make enough with Jem/PIA sales to never have to work again in his life. Same with his kids. And his kids' kids. I don't think it's a contractual obligation or money driven to not give modelers their due. Just my opinion though.

I would think that on some levels, it would be disheartening if not frustrating to hear that kind of feedback from those guys if I were in Cliff's shoes. Maybe they're at that age or stage in their careers where they don't want or "have" to tweak things to their liking - someone else does it for them. And to that end, maybe they're too set in their ways and no matter how close or accurate or "real" the models get, they'll never accept them because they're "models".

There's always going to be "some" difference in amps vs. modelers to some people's ears even if it's purely emotional and esoteric and can't be quantified.
 
GlennO said:
I think what Joe is hinting at is there is more to inspiration than sound. There's an emotional element as well. Plugging into a tube amp may sound exactly the same as modeler, but knowing I'm connected to something that glows and has a rich history makes me feel different about the experience of playing, and I'll play different because of that emotional response. Similarly, I'll play different if the studio is lit by candle light. Playing through a tube amp has the same kind of effect. I think we're at the point where the gap between digital and tubes can't be closed by technology, because the difference is emotional.
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I agree totally. If emotion didn't come into it I don't think anyone would play a musical instrument in the first place. Since I got into Fractal I've just been playing/writing/recording at home through my studio monitors. I find playing through monitors less forgiving and hence better practice. The day is going to come where I get a valve (I'm British :) ) power amp (probably a Fryette) and I think I'll have the greatest guitar rig known to mankind. If Steve was to bypass the Synergy modules and put an amp block with the current firmware into the power amp on that stage I would be fascinated to hear his opinion.
 
It's hard for me to take some of these opinions seriously, when they contradict themselves in the next sentence and these contradictions have been repeated for years now. I am ok having a with different opinion and I am open for the experience of professionals, but there are some flaws in the statements and there are some obvious missing knowledge about "computers" in 2024.
 
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My last few years with Amps I was using in ear monitors. I blocked the cabinet because I didn’t need to hear it. Now with an FM9 and still on in ears I don’t even notice the difference.
 
Fjelltronen said:
I wonder when Mr Vai last tried Fractal's amp models?
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Respectfully, it's condescending to write this sort of thing from across the internet about someone with Vai's experience - particularly without knowing additional context. Not only is Vai a very long time Fractal user (the Fractal Legato model is his personal amp for crying out loud!), a recent rig rundown mentioned that they run Fractal modeling for the Hydra guitar seen in Teeth of the Hydra. So as a matter of fact he has used it very recently and while you and I may disagree with his opinions, the accusation of ignorance is a bit much. This is someone who quite recently rebuilt his live rig completely from scratch with new amps and a new Axe Fx III. He is absolutely not using some decades old legacy (ha!) setup.
 
yek said:
I think people, even these GOATs, still mistakingly base their opinions on the comparison "modeler >> FRFR" versus "amp >> cab".
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i'll try to be very vague here on purpose, but i was at a high profile show and a guitarist using the axe3 traded out their FRFR onstage monitor for a real cab. they sound checked and he said it sounded weird, the tech was like ohhhh you'd have to disable the cab modeling. it was close to show time and they didn't have time to fix it, they're on ears anyway, so it gave the "oomph" he wanted while playing. but yeah everyone needs to learn about different configurations the same way.

if they have an amazing rig already, why would they spend hours trying to make "some new thing" work for them? maybe guthrie for example had the need to create a smaller rig, so he did spend that time making it work. the same time we would all have to spend to learn any new product or gear.

imagine playing 200 shows a year on the same rig for 40 years, then trying something else out - anything - and not immediately getting the response you want. you might say "this new thing doesn't do it for me."
 
Promit said:
Respectfully, it's condescending to write this sort of thing from across the internet about someone with Vai's experience - particularly without knowing additional context. Not only is Vai a very long time Fractal user (the Fractal Legato model is his personal amp for crying out loud!), a recent rig rundown mentioned that they run Fractal modeling for the Hydra guitar seen in Teeth of the Hydra. So as a matter of fact he has used it very recently and while you and I may disagree with his opinions, the accusation of ignorance is a bit much. This is someone who quite recently rebuilt his live rig completely from scratch with new amps and a new Axe Fx III. He is absolutely not using some decades old legacy (ha!) setup.
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No mate, I carefully used language to not be condescending because I am in no position to question Mr Vai. This forum is in fact the only form of social media I have ever used because I have the self awareness to realise the internet is full of unqualified opinions and doesn't need my input too. Hence I said things like "I wonder" and "it would be..." and I do wonder about these thing. I was posing a question, not a pronouncement, about the additional context.

"On the one hand, being the guitar guru/nerd he is, you would think he does keep up with such developments BUT on the other hand, with his amps permanently dialled in to his liking in the studio, and after years of refinement, does he bother?"

I even refer to him as a guitar guru and I am not even a fan, just an appreciator of his talents and one of a few people who's opinion I would actually defer to.

As an example, Metallica go on tour with their finely tuned Fractal rigs, Cliff makes an improvement to the amp modelling which is significant and you know they are not going to update firmware mid tour and get to appreciate the notable gains, which is a shame but it is obvious why they wouldn't.

Another example; some You Tuber does a comparison with a slightly outdated firmware and they make their pronouncement which will be observed by X amount of people who will take their verdict as gospel and I think "damn, these so called 'influencers' need to do their due diligence if they are actually intending to influence others and update their 'content' to keep abreast of developments."

The internet is lacking in solid, unbiased reviews and drowning in clickbait and if I am going to add my own thoughts to the melee I make damn sure to act as my own editor in advance because shit doesn't go away, unfortunately :)
 
chris said:
i'll try to be very vague here on purpose, but i was at a high profile show and a guitarist using the axe3 traded out their FRFR onstage monitor for a real cab. they sound checked and he said it sounded weird, the tech was like ohhhh you'd have to disable the cab modeling. it was close to show time and they didn't have time to fix it, they're on ears anyway, so it gave the "oomph" he wanted while playing. but yeah everyone needs to learn about different configurations the same way.

if they have an amazing rig already, why would they spend hours trying to make "some new thing" work for them? maybe guthrie for example had the need to create a smaller rig, so he did spend that time making it work. the same time we would all have to spend to learn any new product or gear.

imagine playing 200 shows a year on the same rig for 40 years, then trying something else out - anything - and not immediately getting the response you want. you might say "this new thing doesn't do it for me."
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the last sentence rings true definitely Chris. My ears are used to the JMP-1 preamp, every day, tours, sessions since 1995! so I can hear every tiny difference. the Fractal amp models (to my ears) are the only ones that come close.

with regards to Vai and Satch, whilst teaching at guitar colleges, I got to spend time with them both, albeit for an afternoon. doesn't really matter what they played through they sounded amazing because of the most overlooked element in all of this. Pick attack, fret hand squeeze, intonation, pickup selection based on fretboard area, note choice, phrasing. you're turning an ant into a dinosaur, so that stuff really matters.
 
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